Reason to vote
 

This is what we are trying to get to. Hopefully, the MFCA will eventually sponsor or sanction their own regional and national tournaments with their own set of rules and we need to know what is going to be acceptable for everyone and still keep within the mission of the MFCA. As Chairman of the Rules committee I need to know what the membership of the MFCA wants. A very welcome and much appreciated poll and topic not "trash" or a "waste of time"!!!

I voted 3.2/3.3 because I think this is the most common standard weight and has existed as such in multiple leagues for years, however I think the MFCA standard should be 4.0, as it allows for a more diverse product to showcase at the convention (customs, customs, customs).

My 2 pennies.

trash this POST ...
 

Trash this post, ..........the whole thing is null and void due to the fact that figures and bases should be weighed separately.

First off KNOW what Standard means - A technical standard is an established norm. No one can argue that the norm for 40 years have been a figure at 2.0 and a base at 1.2/1.3.

weight limit for a "standard figure" is 2.0 grams and a base is 1.2/1.3 grams............hence the "3.3" misnomer" what happens when you have a heavier figure on a rookie base, ...............say the figure/custom figure weighs in a 2.5 grams and he is on a rookie base of .8 grams......................he makes weight..........what is to say after he makes weight this 2.5 gram figure makes it way on to a DDB or TTC base weighing 1.2 during a game???????????????????

Hmmmmmmmmmm that makes his aggregate weight 3.6 grams and thus over the limit 3.3 ........yes, it happens boys and girls!

Now this also goes for this for this 4.0 weight class as well.

Unlimited is great because all the figure has to do is fit the height and weight template and the base must be able to move!

Coach Rip thats a whole other debate.
I do think that not everyone voting on this understands that 2 wires have been crossed here. Voting to set standards and voting to determine a standard that the MFCA wants to recognize as thier desired weight are 2 totally different things.

This has been voted on in the sense of what do you like better 3.3 or 4.0?

Anyone who frequents this board could have told you what the more popular weight would have been.

I am wiling to help clear things up...in the proper manner....thats the last I have to say.

Geno H

Well, the numbers speak for themselves. So far, 90% of the people want 4.0 as the 'official weight standard' I'll type this real slow so that everyone understands....
This doesn't mean that you have to play at that weight, or change your teams.

What this means, is that now, finally, all you have to do is make one team and you can play against anyone else. Just one. For new people, it means they can go ahead and start with a 4.0 limit, instead of trying to figure out what class to shoot for.

This is not a ridiculous idea. What I find ridiculous is seeing 3.2, 3.3, 3.5, 4.0, 4.2, 5.0, unlimited..... A person would go nuts trying to set up teams for every weight class out there. Now you only need to set up one at 4.0, and you should be ok to play against anyone else at 4.0. That's it. No need to cut players apart and drill them out to make weight. All figures and all bases. No exclusions.

I've played my entire life with teams that are 3.3 or under. Every team I have is at this weight. I'm perfectly happy with the way that they run and perform. I am not going to change any of them. They will always be at 3.3 or less. BUT, now I will make a 4.0 team. Just one, and I will be set to play against anyone else, any time, any place, because hopefully, they, too, will have a 4.0 team.

Now, hopefully someday real soon, we will also have a universal rule set to play by. One that we can all use our 4.0 teams to play against each other with. That doesn't mean that we all have to play by those rules at home or in our leagues, it will simply be one rule set that would be a 'standardized' system that anyone can adhere to and play against anyone else. Just one rule to learn instead of 10 or 12.

Is this concept too difficult for anyone out there to understand??? If you're still confused or upset, PM me and let's see if we can come to a mutual understanding.

Al,
I too will type very slowly YOU DONT UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl:


Geno H

I've thought about this a lot the last few days and can see good reasoning from both sides of the fence. It has been a great discussion and very level headed. I have actually changed some of my thinking on this since the start of the discussion. Seeing the vote to this point also has played into my thoughts. Maybe the 3.3 guys are not voting, but if this was a presidential election they would of announced it as a landslide win by now, for President 4.0-bama.

4.0 is more inclusive, allows for greater flexibility in style, however, if the MFCA is to adopt this as the "official" standard (again as Al said, you can still have 3. whatever and still be part of the big picture) then along with this needs to be an overall height maximum. Essentially a definition of what scale and size is acceptable to go with the 4.0. Chris Fields works in this field and has clearly laid out how miniatures are defined and I believe he said that they are measured from eye to foot which puts our figures in the 28 mm scale category.

Now if we adopt 4.0, does that change the skills competitions? Currently we have: up to 3.3 and 3.4 and over. Do we then go to: up to 4.0 and 4.1 and over? As far as rules for the future MFCA rule set, I think 4.0 is the way to go and the only way to go. When I vote it will be for that weight.

To every one against 4.0 as a standard IT DOESN'T CHANGE anything in your current league. You still can do whatever you want and everybody will.

What adopting 4.0 does and says to anyone new entering the hobby is:
4.0 is the accepted national MFCA allowable weight for figure and base combinations. Leagues in your area may run under different maximum weights and you should check with the league you intend to play in before investing in building your team. Please note that the game can be played at many different weight levels from 3.3 to as much as 20 or more grams. 4.0 , however is the standard for national and international play.

Does that kind of sum it up?

I did want to speak to this also.
Promotion of the hobby can mean many things. Yes, producing DVD's brochures, ad packages, etc is promotion, but so is setting standards. In order to write a brochure or sell advertising, we need to show that we are organized and have fair competition. Rules and standards are the foundation to us being able to promote the hobby on a more advanced level. Being organized and showing that we know what we are doing gives us competitive credibility and gives anyone wanting to start up and compete a fair chance to compete and succeed. Firm guidelines is a way to promote and may be the best way to promote!

Just my thoughts...Shabby and I always go at it...LOL :D I can't wait till July when I'm in LA to get on the field with him and settle it once and for all. :)

Landslide!!!
 

At this point the tally is 40 - 5. It looks like the MFCA has spoken.

Now let's move forward and let a new era begin! ppls$

Put 'em up Wolf!

:fghttt: :fghttt: :fghttt:

$br# $br# $br#

I WILL REFRAIN FROM SAYING AN OFFICIAL TAKEOVER
 

COACHES,

BUT, The numbers dont lie. it is quite evident what the EF citizens want out of this hobby. Every had/has the opportunity to vote. WHETHER OR NOT YOU CARE ENOUGH IS YOUR PEROGATIVE. There are some people who will just go with the flow either way,This voting poll is very eye opening. I did not think it would be that much of a landslide. At this point i would have thought it would be 24-17 either way. 41-5 is a number i hope all is paying attention to.

the reason i put up past post is to show you we have these debates from time to time and NOTHING EVER GETS DONE. NOT THIS TIME !
The people have spoken and now we would like to see action. The 41-5 message is loud and clear. The coaches who are for 4.0 have made valid reasons for supporting that weight. THANX TO AL REVENA FOR PUTTING UP THIS POLL. It is eye opening to say the least. WE MUST SET STANDARDS TO GIVE OUR HOBBY MORE CREDIBILITY AND TAKEN MORE SERIOUSLY LIKE THE XBOX AND PLAY STATION CAMPS. Whwnever you have a group of anyone do anything together, you will never get all involved agreeing on the same thing.
This poll, is one of the most significant events in the hobbies history. For once, the people have spoken loud and clear with there votes. Say whatever you want afterwards, THE NUMBERS DONT LIE.

Please dont ignore what has taken place in the polls. IT'S HISTORIC.


Mantaraydre

Numbers????
 

What are you talking about????


a total of 47 members voted, ..........................how many do we have in membership???

I know there would be 14 more for 3.3 in my BuzzBall league alone, ..........it is just that this is such nonsense I'm the only one wasting my time on it, the rest are over at rm's house playing games!

Numbers
 

Actually this has been a very good response. You are never going to get 200 votes on anything on here. We can only go by those who choose to vote.

This is such a senseless waste of time, again, I see us spinning wheels wasting time on crap, I am sorry, nothing personal, this is horrible.

We play 3.3, 4.0 and unlimited, why do we need to make one a priorty over the other, leave the standard at 3.3 so as to be able to accommodate EVERYONE, the guy who just got his stuff from Miggle or Ebay or the guy who dug his childhood stuff out, etc..

A 3.3 team can go to 4.0 in less than 30 minutes, but you can't go back.

So go ahead you numbers men and set the "standard" at 4.0 and know that you are EXCLUDING a lot of potential coaches.

Nonsense, plain and simple!

Wolf, one day I swear we'll agree on something, one day it is bound to happen! :D

Shabby!!!!!!!
 

................Had a great time in LA, .............you and I had a great cool game, ......glad we are on the same page on this! ;)

Hey George, we had a blast the weekend, man we laughed. Talk some sense into these people will ya.


mgngcrz

WOW............OMG........just checked the polls
 

42-6 for 4.0,...............I'm shocked to see this,...I thought most cats liked 3.3 better.

P.S. Whatever is fine with me

Norbert

Well not everyone likes 4.0
 

The HHEFL votes 3.3! There is 9 votes that have not been counted yet. Sometimes you guys...wow...I think this post went a little over board...I am with George Diamond on this one...and for MANTARAY- DRE...I love you man, I really do, I think most people that know Dre will agree...for a guy that is quiet in real person, you sure do have a lot to say and come alive on line dude. :) Thanks for stirring the pot up! ppcrn :D

And no...not everyone has had the opportunity to vote...I just got online!

In any event...debate is usually a good thing, but this post is like saying...do you prefer Strawberry or Vanilla ice cream...in the end...it is still ice cream...

We (the staff of The Tweak) actually discussed doing an article where we had the debate between 3.3 and 4.0...kinda like a presidential debate thing...but in the end I felt it was too controversal and it would divide the coaches into two camps, when the MFCA is about unity.

For me, like Norbert said, whatever is fine with me...we all have our own style of play, figures we like and weight we use...standards are not the answer...diversity...that is the what makes a game better, because it keeps evolving.

Shabby J also has a good point...the new guy coming into the hobby, he just wants to play and the 3.3 equipment or "standard stuff", is a great way to get things going....

My two cents...May God Bless either the 3.3 or 4.0...he probably does not care either! $cch$

P.S. George we have 267 members...with over 150 being relatively new to the hobby...I think they would vote 3.3...so that makes it 158-42 :rtfl:

What about this though
 

I totally understand a guy who wants to play at 3.3 and pulling out his old stuff from of the closet after 30 years or so. However, you can quickly get him up to 4.0 with some lead tape under his platform. However, the guy that wants to customize his figures is the guy that cannot go down in weight unless he hollows out every player and then uses a sliver of plastic to use as his platform (this is so frustrating to customizers and not worth the time). It's soooooo easy to use that lead tape to go up in weight,but a lot harder to go down when using custom figures. Also, I have found that playing in a 4.0 league as opposed to a 3.3 league weight limit allows for better performance from my team because figures are less likely to fall down on a hot spot on the board. Matt Culp plays in the Mid-Ohio league with his Cowboys that are the little miggle team. Because of the lead tape (that no one can see by the way) he is at the same weight as everyone who has customes, and everyone is happy. Don't let the guy that wants to play with custom figures out because of a weight everyone can get to.

.
 

Let them wiegh what they weigh as long as no "artificial" weight is added! How simple is that!!! Make it 4.1, 4.2, doesn't matter, but don't allow weight to be added.

yeah man, .............
 

Why stop there?????????????? 4.4, 4.5 ........ 7.0, 8.0...doesn't matter... :confused:

I guess I'm trying to figure out what is the objection to having standards?
Ultimately, I think, but I may be wrong on this, we are just trying to set an MFCA standard. I know it is not worded that way in the poll, but isn't that what it ultimately comes down to? Leagues are still going to set whatever weight they want to run with. I don't see a single league changing to 4.0 just because we set a standard so really this is about an MFCA standard.

There is still nothing wrong with having classes. The MFCA skills competition is set to 3.3 and below and the enhanced is everything above 3.3. Does this change with a 4.0 standard? Probably...

I'm just trying to get a grip on what the real question is here? What is the ultimate goal of setting standards and why are so many opposed to ANY standard?

it's already set.
 

Wolf,

The standard, by definition, is already set.

All the mfca has to do is decide on what classes are going to recognized for whatever competition you have.

Classes of competition are much different than a "standard".

What we have here are some posters with unbridled passion, and unfortunately for them, make no sense because they are misusing words, or using words in the wrong context.

When you buy a car, ............ they have a "standard" version, it is what it comes with from the factory in its basic state.

If you want to order "options", you are basically ordering a "custom" car.

Likewise, when you get a figure from BuzzBall it is "standard", ...............once one removes the arms, and changes them, or bends them, the owner has just technically "customized the figure.

Therefore, by the very nature of these ridicules posts it is impossible to have a 4.0 standard. for a few reasons.

#1 a game piece is made of two parts, a figure and a base. Figures have a weight range but max out at 2.0/2.1. Bases also have weight maxing out at 1.2/1.3.

#2 Figures and bases must be weighed separately. as I stated numerous times a heavy figure on a light base can "make weight", but after the weigh in the heavy figure can make it's way onto a heaver base, therefore being "overweight.

#3 The base line standard has already been set. by 40 years of tudor.

I personally think that IF the MFCA is truly about the MF coach then they or we should simply IDENTIFY what standards are already out there.

The WEIGHT standards are already there and they have identified theirselves.

3.3 & under- many leagues use this

4.0 & under- many leagues use this

unlimited- very limited use

Yes I agree there are a couple of Leagues out there that use some odd weights I liken that to "house rules" a little of the norm and it is only in a couple of areas.

That is just one area of standards. You have heighth, width so on and so forth.


I think this single question of 3.3 vs 4.0 has handed us confusion and division (in thought). So many people have answered this poll in a different manner and for different reasons. It has yielded as much as the thought that was put into it.

This is a much more important issue than to simply throw up one question and make decision.

For the Coach:
I think we need to simply IDENTIFY the standards and then educate the coach and let him make his own decision which will probably be handled on a local level and take care of itself.

For the Manufacture:
This is where we want to save ourselves from an ARMS RACE. We dont want to let the Standards to steadily increase causing our equipment to become outdated and no longer useable. It will becaome a money pit and ruin the hobby.


Geno H

Coach Rip,
It seems we were answering at the same time and agree on some things.

I have stated before weighing the Figure and base seperately is a another debate that should be dealt with within a rule set not as part of a standard.


Geno H

I have read some of the responses. I have a very easy solution which I'm implementing. I'm gonna have both a 3.3 and a 4.0 team. But what I can tell you from what I'm seeing with a lot of leagues around the country and coaches as well, you'll be well advised to have a 4.0 team ready as I think this is where the hobby is going! As for a standard for the hobby? I think if you have a 3.3 and 4.0 team ready, you'll be able to play and compete anywhere in the country.

RD

Not so fast.............
 

Geno,

As the reasons I have stated, figures and bases are separate, therefore since they both come in slightly different sizes, the "standard" for a figure and base is not a different debate.

There are standard figures from the factory, and there are standard bases from the factory.

RD.... not really
 

Your post is reasonable in thought, as it makes sense, however, if you have played around the country as I have, the 3.3 and so called 4.0 are just window dressing, aka tip of the iceberg....................and no, they are not melting and will drown us in 10 years, ...but that is for another blog! lffng$

What I have found through experience, is you will have to modify or build a team for each league you play.

most leagues are Pro nfl type leagues, if you have a raiders team out fitted on both weight classes, ...............suppose the league you want to travel to play, already has a raiders team?

Each league has their "flava" with regards to rules, they may restrict certain figures, they may restrict they way you weight your players, ....... ie. lead tape or boiled bases, weight under the base only or allowed to be on the figure...........

George, I have no personal issues with you. I consider you a friend in this hobby. However; I do have to ask. Who said that bases have to weigh 1.3 grams or less? Who said figures have to max at 2.0 or 2.1? When and where was this ever discussed? You keep refering to the Tudor figures and bases, which is fine. But there are other figures out there that have come and gone and some that are still here. What about them? Why are they being excluded? When these came out, where was the written rule that they should be such and such a weight? I don't recall anyone at anytime ever having a vote to say 2.0 is the maximum weight for a figure and 1.3 shall be the maximm weight for a base and nobody shall be allowed to add weight to them. Exactly who made these rules???????????????

I've always played with 3.3 or less teams. I have absolutely no problem with how they perform. Every team I have is at this weight. BUT, and that's a big but, I have no problem with making a change. Times have changed since the 60's. The game, or should I say the game play has changed since then. The boards have changed since them. Maybe it's time we make a new weight limit, one that is not constricted to figures and bases that were made 40 years ago.

That is what this vote was meant to be. Do we want a new limit of 4.0, something that we can set in writing so that all manufacturers today and tomorrow can adhere to, or do we want to keep the old limit, based on figures and bases from when the game was in its heyday?

I think we need something set in stone, one way or the other, so when we start promoting this wonderful hobby of ours, we don't look like a bunch of schmucks with no rhyme or reason as to how to play the game.

It seems the word "standard" is mudding the conversation.

So what we have then is "Classes":
1)Out of the box, out of the bag, unmodified, unweighted. Under 3.3 (stick a figure on a base-Does that include chinstrap, painting, facemask, towel,grass additions?)
2)Modified, weighted, customized and under 4.0
3)Unlimited, anything goes as long as it is human in proportion.

George,
It governs itself. If I use a base @ .95 and a figure @ that weighs 3.05 guess what I can play that in a 4.0 format. However at the same time I cant use it at any lower playing weight.
To set a standard in fear of someone switching bases is the tail waggin the dog.

Geno H

Weight standard
 

When you consider 3.2 , 3.3 or 4.0 I think just about every coach knows what you are talking about. Come on people. Combination of figure and Base no more than a certain weight. The "standard" we are referring to here has nothing to do with the figure per se. The question raised here is that for many years the recognized weight limit has been 3.2 g for the combination of base and figure and is that really the "standard" today.

I don't believe it is and the voting confirms this.

If the standard combined weight limit is 3.3 g for 40 years then we need to RESET the standard to 4.0 g

As the MFCA best represents coaches of our modern hobby and we seek to have rules that reflect how we play the game today and what will include the most coaches, I believe it is up to us to set the standards and yes, rules that incorporate how most coaches play today. The weight limit is a legitimate issue and part of what the MFCA should be discussing.

To reiterate, no one is trying to state that standard sets of figures , be they Fab Five, MIggle Pro Line, or whatever are "outlawed" or no longer allowed, but that the combination base + figure "standard" weight limit is 4.0

4.0 should be the MFCA standard!
 

From my experience, I think 4.0 should be the MFCA standard. This is based on playing in many of the major tournaments out there and experiencing play on the larger boards at higher speeds. The advantages of 4.0 are :

1. The players perform better - they dont fall over as much at higher speeds.
2. You can use just about any customizable figure out there and make weight without drilling holes, etc.
3. You can use just about combination of figure and base and make weight.
4. You can add weight easily to any figure to make maximum weight.

You don't have any of these advantages if you make the standard 3.3.

I understand the frustrations of manufacturers trying to design around a standard. But going to 4.0 does not rule out any manufacturers equipment. My favorite figures are buzzball and I add weight to my buzzball figures to make 4.0. About 90% of my figures are buzzball and I prefer playing at 4.0! I also use a lot of the haiti repro figures.

Lets go 4.0 and go with it!

beenutt

oh my...
 

this is pointless.......

Geno, tail wagging the dog, .............tell you what.......... you put on a tournament with 40 - 50 guys and see what happens.

I'm very vocal about this because I'm the ONLY one on this board, who has literally invested 10's of thousands of dollars in this hobby. You guys don't like or trust my judgment, and totally discredit my experience, much less understand what you are talking about.....to each his own.

Wolf you are getting it, .....it is about establishing "Classes" for competition, .............Not standards for equipment. Folks, Use the correct words for what you are talking about.

Al, if you can't understand by now with all my explanations, or if you have trouble reading what I have said, ..........then there is nothing else to say, it all has been said in all of my posts...............everything thoroughly explained about the difference and what Standards Actually are. ............................. I didn't make the ******** standard.....tudor did!

This is absolutely true and a hard to dispute fact that the higher weight allows a coach to create much better balanced figure because the weight can be adeded LOW. A "classic" tudor figure was actually about 1.4g and placed on a 0.8g rookie base was only 2.2g. This is not nearly as robust as a 4.0g figrue placed on a vibrating table as minor variations in the boards vibrations have a much larger effect on the light players. The RB breaks thru the hole, he's at the 30-20-10...oh he takes a left turn and runs out at the 5! You know we all cringe when that happens.

You want the weight LOW LOW LOW in the "athlete" (figure + base) in order to improve playability. 4.0 weighted category allows for this! PROGRESS

Two categories:
3.2g classic
4.0g weighted/customs

Standards
 

If u use the phrase "Competition Weight" instead of "Standards" I believe everyone here would agree. The standards are in place with regard to manufactured products, thats not gonna change no time soon. As far as "Competition Weight" thats really whats this about. 4.0 is the preferred "Competition Weight" for stated reasons, that doesnt mean standards have to change.

Earth to Tomkat....earth to Tomkat..........................

Coach Rip, I think your perspective is very well respected and everyone is listening to you!

You are spot on about standards vs. classes. We should be calling this playing "classes" and not standards. However, I don't think so many peole are getting caught up in those semantics, they are just sharing their preferences. This is the consumer talking! From a manufacturers point of view, don't you want to create a new item that is so great and well recieved that it becomes the standard? Take for example your figures. Tudor didn't have arms foreward figures or tall reciever figures. You broke from standard with these didn't you? Now your figures are standard because they were so well recieved! If someone comes out with a 2.0g bases that runs out of the bag without tweaking required it will become standard.

WOW!
 

This is better than "Days of Our Lives" ppcrn ppcrn ppcrn ppcrn ppcrn ppcrn ppcrn ppcrn ppcrn ppcrn ppcrn ppcrn ppcrn ppcrn ppcrn ppcrn ppcrn

If Al ends up dead, I am going to blame the butler! :rtfl: :eek: btddhrs :rulz: :sddr:

Maybe we do need to write an article for the Spring Issue of The Tweak...it will be the most anticipated issue ever! Okay...who is offering their input?

I voted for 4.0, though my personal preference is 4.0 for linemen, 3.6 for backs, receivers, linebackers, and DBS

Quick question though...when did 3.3 become the standard? I remember since we first started and Mike Pratt came up with the standards that is was always 3.2...why did that change?

The heaviest tudor figure is less than 2.0 (even the 68 big men) and the heaviest base ever made by Tudor is 1.2g. Thus, the standard set by Tudor is 3.2...right?

So, shouldn't this be a debate about 3.2 versus 4.0 for standards (or whatever you want to call them...most anyone on this board could care less)?

Just curious,
Mark

Coach Rip,
Honestly , just because people arent agreeing doesnt mean that they are discrediting your knowledge.

You have know idea how much time,effort and money,which all have value, that I have put into this as well.

I respect your input and expertise. We can just agree to disagree.

Read my posts above I get the difference between standards and classes however they do share common ground and can be dicussed in the same conversation.

All that manufacture products for MF today have a right to be included and grandfathered into TODAYS standards.

Geno H