standardization in our hobby...
 

Ok, here is a subject that has been talked about for a long time but I would like to open up the topic again. Electric football - can it grow without some type of standardization?

One of the greatest things about electric football is that we can play the game with our own preferences - starting with solitaire and even in our own regional leagues. Some people like using the passing sticks. Some people play with dividers. Some use a 3.2 weight scale, some have 4.0, some have no limits. Some play on small fields and others on monster boards. We can play how we are used to playing and we play according to what we like. I enjoy this part of the game but does it limit how much this hobby can grow? Can we grow the game nationally if every one is playing a different variation?

I guess we need to ask ourself - What do we want this hobby to become? For myself, I'd like to see us on ESPN 2 televising the national championship of electric football. I think it would make for great TV - at least more exciting the paintball championships.

I look forward to hearing from the electric football world on this on.

beenutt

I hope to never see our hobby on espn2. Everyone really needs to sit down and think about what that would cause - both from intended and unintended consequences.

I completely understand the potential this and similar questions have for discussion and understanding. As mentioned, it has been kicked around many times in the past. But I am going to be brutally honest....... It isn't going to change many minds, if any, from past discussions on the subject. I say that because....

It is much like we met in a conference room, metaphorically speaking, at say, a Holiday Inn. In that meeting we kicked this question around and all in attendance chimed in. OK, Now we load up the bus and move those same people in attendance to say, a conference room at the Radison. We now ask the same question.

I guess what I'm getting at is "same people, same question, different room." The only thing that changed much is the room. Most people already have their minds made up and have moved towards their wishes, agendas or desires on this and other significant issues. I see no point in preaching to the choir but to a small degree. Especially when a little research on history of events, similar hobbies (successful and not so successful) and business ventures will answer this question for anyone willing to do so.

So without preaching to the choir, too much, YES, standardization is essential to the continuous growth and success of this hobby, especially in a public arena. That said, I encourage anyone who doubts or does not agree to do what makes them happy. I mean, after all, if one is not happy with what they are doing then why play? With or without standards, do what you want to do. It's your money, your stuff and your enjoyment that is on the line. Don't put too much on thinking you need to get on board a particular bus and don't put too much on worrying that you may have missed a particular bus. Concentrate on enjoying the trip - a trip you want to go on. The rest, I assure you, is far less important.

Nothing mentioned above is solely to do with EF. It's just common sense that applies to many aspects of life. There are always exceptions to the rules and there are always exceptional situations. But as worded, they are exceptions and exceptional. Not the norm.

-Mike Pratt

Do we really need Standardization- I say "YES"
 

Is a great topic. I agree I believe that for the hobby to flourish we do need a standardized set of rules..... This has been the subject of debate for some time but I truly believe that with a national, standard set of rules and equipment national recognition and participation would follow. This is a great hobby I beleive a lot more young people would participate if there was more awareness. I for one got back into the hobby when I saw an ESPN commercial that featured the game.....

I would think that such rules should have come from and been pushed by the licensed manufacturer, Miggle Toys, however, they have been more interested in the business aspect of E-ball then playing the game (which is fine and works for them). Hence there has been little or no leadership in this regard. We could consider the convention rules to be "official" but they are only in effect once a year.

I counted 50 or so leagues on the Miggle web site. I know there a probably more but some of these leagues are defunct or solitaire leagues, and I don't think they should be counted. Perhaps a "blue Ribbon Committe" could be established to reasearch the possibities of establishing a standard set of rules and equipment. Or use the rules of an established National league, like the High Voltage Leage, and call those rules the National Rules. Steve.

Here again is where a coaches association would come into play.
Start a membership for whatever amount. Let's say $50.00 just to put a number on it.
Once that menbership reaches 50 people hold an election of board members. 1 from each region of the us with the US divided into 5 or 7 regions.
These 5 or 7 individuals would be in charge of creating the rules set.
The rules would have to reflect on what the majority of the EF community plays by.
Now you get the major manufacturers to sign on with their support.
Each region could then play a season under those rules. At the end set up 1 tourney and invite all the members to it. This would be recognized as the Coaches Association Tourney and would be considered the National Champion of EF. Make sure that the prize is kicking like a Superbowl Ring!!

The next year each region would then send their delegate to the rules meeting and things would again be hashed out without messing too much with the fabric of the original set of rules.

Now you have a National Set of rules, a coaches association determining the outcome and a tourney. People can sign on if they want to or not. It's not a Miggle champion or a Buzzball champion or a FF.com champion all though all of these can take place as well. Simple isn't it


Once on the boat you can then put your two cents into the rules and make it grow and change. The NHFL is more then a league...it can be the catalist to achieving the National recognition and growth that the game of EF deserves!! SIGN ON....I really don't know what the holdup is. You can still play EF the way you want to anytime of the year but just for one 8-10 game season you will have to conform to NHFL rules. Rules BY The Coaches, FOR the Coaches and OF the Coaches....4 score and 7 years ago our forefathers set up on the gridiron to ......you know where I'm going with this.....:D

Nhfl
 

An excellent post. Myself and a few others from Michigan expressed an interest in joining the NHFL. We may have lacked the required number of players to form our own region. I am to understand that it may be too late for this year. If this is true, I hope to play next year, If not, send me a pm or e-mail me at:

martin2418@sbcglobal.net

Great Post And Brilliant Idea!
 

Coaches,

This is what i was getting at on the miggle chat, it seems the chatter about this topic is pondering in the minds of some. $50 is a nice fee to join.
This hobby would grow a great deal if newbies and others saw that their was a coaches association established.Their are about ten to fifteen coaches here in new york but everyone is on such a different page. With this assoc, we could combine new jersey and new york for an east region if we could get get all on the same page. This would be something great in my opinion.


One gripe of mine is weight isues. Most of my fig's are reggies ff.com players, 2.0 is far to limiting a weight too be fair. reggies fig's painted with a base range from 3.6 to 4.0., without any extra added weight. So that means his fig's will have to be excluded from national play. I still would love to know why the accepted weight is so low. But with that being said, that's were a national committe on standardization would step in. If this is national then every fig from every manufacture should be allowed with an agreed upon weight for all 50 states.


Why dont we just start it and let members join little by little at their conveince, they may feel more comfortable once the see a few card carrying members . Hey wolfe, lets see if we can get the first ten interested and go from their. We have the best hobby in the land and we need to expand.

broadway-dre

No standards mean....
 

no growth, ............plain and simple, ..............and for one, any manufacturer will be somewhat hesitant to invest in this hobby any more, until the existing standards are adhered to, ..........why invest in new figures when the next guy will make a larger figures, call it cutting edge in design and dominating, when all it is is more mass on a base.

Bigger and bigger under the guise of "re-engineering/design" for better performance. Pretty soon some clown will have a GI joe sized figure on a base, or a mcfarlane figure on a base and brag about how dominant it is when it outweighs current figures by a ton.

Larger figures will automatically make existing fields smaller, ...............and correct me if I'm wrong , .......but are there not a few posts on this message board about big boards???? Ohh,,,,,,, that will be great if the figures increase by let's say a mere 50%, that means size and weight, ...........would'nt you have to increase the size of the boards as much to stay with what we have now?

If anything, smaller should be the way to go, except many of US are getting too long in the tooth to see anything smaller, . :D ........but it could make an existing tudor 620 closer to scale than what we have now, .................and those of you who tout a big board, I think a scale board is aproximately 6 feet long, .................increase a figure by 50% and geeze, ............you are looking at a 9' long field, ........... and I read posts about cheap big boards, ...........there are reasons larger boards cost more, ............and larger heavier figures will keep things going where most of you don't want them to go, ..........and that is prices increasing.

Caoch Rip

megawattz
 

it boils down to betamax vs. vhs.hang on far the ride.:D

Standardization Hmmmmm?
 

Goos post Beenutt, all the responses I have read are good ones, In my opinion there are alot of aspects that we need to cover before this can really happen, As stated this is a topic that has been spoken about before, but since this is a new board lets give it a whirl, I would love to see our hobby be represented on a higher scale, like on ESPN or whatever, also as stated maybe having a set of national rules to follow might be a path to get more light shed on what we do, maybe, but I think a selling point of our hobby that makes us interesting is the fact that the Hobby is different on so many levels, I see many peeps say this is the way to play or that is the way to play, or use this figure or use that figure or board or whatever, for me my interest in EF got bigger once I understood that there were so many different roads to travel in the hobby itself, I dug the fact that guys like Reg Rutlegde offered a more closer looking NFL version on an EF scale, I dug that the TBA had a way of playing that was more coaching than strongest man wins, I dig that the NHVL guys did there own thing with regions that play united in some areas of the country, I dug that the LAEFL guys chose to go with what they felt was best for them than just going along with what the hobby felt about using boiled and chemically altered bases, Standardization is a cool idea, but remember one thing there is no way to please everyone on this idea, maybe once we respect each others ideas and opinions on the hobby we can collectively approach this idea with eyes and minds wide open to the concept itself, In my humble opinion I think it will take some serious heads coming together to make this concept a reality, but what isnt needed is my way to play is best , or our rules are best , our this set of equipment is best, what is needed is acceptance, once that is achieved than we can tackle standardization.

Growth...
 

Does standardization lead to growth? Probably. But not the type of growth that will get this hobby to the next level. In some ways we are already standardized. Old or new we are using the same type of bases. Foam or felt, most of us are using the same sized footballs. Metal, wood, large, or small we are all playing on the same types of fields. Stock, custom, resin cast, or injection molded we are all using the same types of figures.

So what’s left to standardize? Rules. Maybe. Let’s see… We all play either Front of the base, or any touch. We all play TTQB passing, or some type of pass placement*; some of us use both. (* This includes pass simulation, pass emulation, spot pass, or attac pass)
We all either play spread formations with gaps, or tight formations with rugby scrums.

All in all we are all playing roughly the same game. All of our games are timed using either real clocks, paper clocks, timers, or number of plays. Nuances (like dice for fumbles and injuries, kicking cards for kickoffs and punts, spinners for passing, and dividers for advance coaching) aside… we are all roughly playing the same game.

With all of our supposed differences… there’s more of a case for commonality and standardization than the lack of it. So why is our hobby slow growing? For the most part we ARE standardized.

Now some of you might point to the lack of marketing, advertising, and media coverage and to a certain extent you’d be right. We all (coaches and manufacturers) must do things that will attract a larger customer base and appeal to kids of all ages. I think we all can agree that fresh blood is the only thing that will sustain this hobby for the next fifty years and beyond.

First things first… If our community wants this hobby to reach the next level and attain real growth, then people need to start treating each other a little better (strike that) A LOT BETTER than he have in the past. We’ve gotten to a place and time in our hobby where prosperity and support are being questioned almost every six months. If you don’t believe me here’s some recent examples:

After the Baltimore convention, I read posts where people from certain areas said that they didn’t have a good time, felt ignored, and disrespected.
Raiderman’s post about why more people aren’t playing in the NHVL.
Dearell’s post about supporting the hobby and how some people are getting support while others are not.
Reggie’s post outlining how it’s hard to support people when you know that they’ve done everything they could to throw you under the bus.
There are posts out there labeling people, attacking people, and attacking styles. Conversely, there are posts out there about getting manufacturers together in the same room. Getting coaches in the same room together. How there are cliques in this hobby, and how the WAR must stop.

The things happening offline are even worse. The gossip, the backstabbing, the disassociation, the phoniness, the group hating, the accusations, the innuendo, and everything in-between that go on are deplorable. If we are going to work together to grow this hobby and bring about some type of unity; then people need to get real, stop the ignorance and denial, and start putting a lid on things that are keeping people apart. Fences need to be mended, olive branches need to be extended, and guys need to start figuring out that the real clique that we (ALL) are in… is electric football. Most of this stuff can and should be handled offline, and can be fixed with just a simple phone call.

If people want to believe that how we’re playing is the biggest reason that things are the way they are… then that’s their prerogative. I tend to believe that the reason our hobby is slow to grow is tied to how people are treating those who are not their friends, newbies, or allies.

These are just my opinions and people can choose to ignore them, but if people don’t start changing their attitudes… then how things are, will continue to be the status quo.

If anyone wants a second opinion, ask Weirdwolf.

Peace,

Don Smith

I can't find much room for argument on what's been said. And I still maintain that adhering to the standards is necessary for growth. However, let me be very clear on this, I never stated that it is THE most important aspect of growth for the hobby. I will try to elaborate.

Let's say in a perfect world we all agreed to play with existing standards and no one raised a little finger against it. Even under this situationally perfect scenario growth is not guaranteed. It is probable to the point I feel comfortable saying it would grow the hobby at a rapid pace from that point. But that would not be a promise of success. Success is solely reliant on true intent. With all the things negative going on, past and present (more past than present as I see it, but still) that Don mentioned, rapid growth or no growth, there will be no real success. While growth is important, growth does not define success.

If I have a growth on my body and it continues to grow and it is cancerous, is that success? The shear size of it or the rapidness that it gains size is not success unless I consider my eminent demise a success. It's not if you grow or how fast. It's WHAT you grow - the quality.

Without the vast majority moving towards what is acknowledged by civil and stable minds as what is positive - for the betterment of most/all, not for the pettiness of the few or many, then all we can expect to grow is cancer. What disturbs me the most is the amount/number of "adults" who can't seem to figure that out. As I get older my explanations on these topics are fewer and farther between. Basically, if you are X years old and have not figured this out by now I rarely make time to explain it as it would do no good.

Again, it's not so much how soon you grow or how fast you grow. The care should be taken in WHAT you grow. Built on a bad foundation it can grow like a weed and crumble like a house of cards. The higher the weed grows the longer the fall and the more painful it will be when it hits rock bottom. A fall this hobby can not afford and probably would not completely recover from. Be careful what you grow is my main point.

Anyone else see the commercial where the crowd is gathered at a bridge over a river? The crowd is watching a guy with a back pack set of glider wings. He is about to test it out to see if it will fly him. He is testing it over the river so if it fails the water will soften the fall. The guy leaps off the bridge and begins to fly and fly well, floating over the top of the river. EVERYONE (well almost everyone) is screaming "HE CAN FLY. HE CAN FLY!" Everyone except one old man who is walking away, refusing to watch. One repeats to him "He can fly." The old man stops, looks them in the eye and says "Yeah but he can't swim." The old man turns and walks away knowing full well what the others refused to see. It's one thing to watch the guy try to fly, another thing to cheer him on as a "success." Watching a train wreck is one thing. Encouraging it is another. But what is worse is the idiot with the wings strapped on his back. He was pretty sure he could fly but didn't consider the fact that he couldn't swim? DOH! As for that guy..... "Here's your sign."

-Mike Pratt

Standardization...
 

Mike hit the nail on the head. If we’re going to have successful growth it’s going to have to be built on a solid foundation, and things in the present are better than they were in the past. Time has fixed a lot of the old problems and softened a lot of the hard feelings, but true mending hasn’t been done. Guys are not reaching out to each other in effort to gain what was lost, or to build something new.

I’m trying to get people to see that if EF was really in a good place, we wouldn’t have so many posts pointing to the fact that people are feeling disrespected. Leagues and tournaments aren’t generating interest from their neighbors, and how fellowship is only being talked about on message boards and not really being practiced. I think Dearell said it best… “The pettiness has to stop!� It’ll only stop when people start reaching out, and start communicating with each other.

I’m not suggesting that everybody isn’t having a good time; on the contrary, a lot of people are having fun. The fun they’re having is with the people they normally fellowship with, or meeting someone new from the convention. Let’s face facts people… we all make extra effort to get to the convention, or to a tournament that’s going to give you the opportunity to hook up with a lot of your friends. Yes geographic and economics are the major reasons when people can’t make it to tournaments, and if we were all independently wealthy (or Mr. National) we could attend them all. People generally attend the tournaments that are the closest to them, and (not so close) tournaments where they’ve repeatedly enjoyed a certain level of fellowship and fun.

Weirdwolf pointed out to me that we’re all getting older, and if we don’t get on these topics like a coaches association, or making a national league more respected and supported by the majority; then it’s not going to happen. If we don’t start getting on the same page and make this hobby more appealing to the masses (especially children) then this hobby goes when we go.

Standardization is rampant throughout this hobby. Whoever’s in charge of the leagues that you join or the tournaments you attend, makes the call on the equipment and the rules. We already have that… what we don’t have is a unified way to play that is nationally accepted by the majority. I realize that no matter how many people come together, you can’t please everyone, but for this hobby to get to the next level… a majority of us need to start pulling in the same direction. I can see that taking place in the not-so-distant future, but people got to be willing to step up. I think we all can agree that none of us are getting any younger so we either do it or we don't.

Again, I can't find much, if any, room for argument. A lot of us as an online community preach and talk about unity and organization. And every single individual had and has the option of attempting it. Yet only a handful have actually done so. And even fewer have shown the propensity to put noses to the grindstone and get something substantial done. My point being in total agreement with Don on this. Talk and type are easy. Doing it is REAL hard work and the pay stinks (as in you work for no pay, rarely get more than a couple of days off and the hours can be relentless). If you doubt it, ask Tom Johnson, Tom Ruesink, Reg, George, the Landsmans, etc. Not everyone - strike that - not many are able and/or willing to do this. And there's no shame in that. For those people who wish to contribute there is support in the way of helping out when and where you can.

I'm obviously not the only person who sees things the way I'm about to mention but I'll keep it in context from my mouth so as not to speak for those with a like mind or different mindset. I see all of the pitfalls and stumbling blocks that are in front of me and I did not forget the ones that are now behind me. I am fully aware. Those things are bi-products of any journey. What I see as most beneficial and as the driving force to stay on track is OPPORTUNITY. That is what motivates me to all but ignore the negativity and navigate the obstacles. Though it has been said in a famous quote that "opportunity is often overlooked or avoided because it is usually disguised in the form of hard work." That is why all the talk and type on the planet is not going to cut it. You must be willing to bust a hump, ignore the negativity when it slows your roll, and work with those on board to fulfill the ultimate goal......... betterment of the hobby as a whole.

No petty, selfish agendas such as "i play this way so everyone else should too" or "i use this stuff so everyone else should too." Playing with exactly what you want and exactly how you want is always an option for all of us. It's called solitaire. Once you introduce anyone else who doesn't totally agree you will be FORCED to compromise in order to play a game. As to bring this back on the threads original point, that is the why, where and how preserving the tried and true standards overcomes those transitional issues (solitaire to competition). That is the commonality that most are familiar with, making it easier for all to get on the same page. While it is not at all how I play at home, nor is it my favorite way to play, it is not about me. It's about moving in a positive direction for as many as possible, and keeping the progress on track. And while we'd all (well, most of us) would love to stand on a platform and say "i/we came up with the "new" standard", ummmmm NO I/We didn't, it's been there since between 1967 and 1972. And WOW! Here's a "new" and novel thought.... That sounds like a tried and true foundation to build on - it's been around and constant since before MOST of us have been playing....... again addressing the original question on the importance of standards.

Agree or not, those very same standards are the equivalent to this hobby's constitution. It is what has allowed people from all over to get on board and on the same page. While amendments in places where absolutely necessary is understandable, rewriting the standards would require a total breakdown/dismantlement of our strongest commonality AND REQUIRE almost 40 years of playing catchup. As stated by a previous poster, we're not getting an younger. I don't have the years to waste waiting for someone/anyone to pull a mythical rabbit out of their proverbial hat, ignoring a perfectly solid, tried, true and time tested foundation under the guise of "we need to rewrite/reinvent the constitution/standards. That is not progress. That is digress - a completely needless waste of precious time and resources.

-Mike Pratt

I feel that the game can grow without standardization. I think that it needs to grow more in VISIBILITY. Basically, information must become easier to find for EF to grow. Different play methods must be acknowledged by Miggle and literature must be distributed to newcomers.

The problem with EF is that newcomers still don't understand three things:

1. what is available
2. how to use it
3. that the game can be realistic.

Miggle needs to do more to educate their customers on how to play the game. If they don't, then we all must take the lead and get the message out.

Lowest common denomiator!
 

Shaggy, ..........well said, ............I have to reitterate, for growth, we MUST make it easy, and simple to get newbies into the hobby. Standards are our vehicle to implement growth.

Once one overwhelms a newbie, with " a million ways to play" philosophy, and "almost any figure goes" mentaility, ........one has just, in most cases, curbed the newbie's progress towards getting involved....... "Paralysis by analysis" which way should I play??? what figures do I need? etc, ..............and trust me when I tell you I get confused newbie calls :eek: all the time.


Proof is in the pudding with tournament participation as well, the standard division out pulls the custom division by by almost 9 to 1 !

coach Rip, I respectfully disagree with you and let me tell you why:

Newbies are not overwhelmed due to the multitude of styles, systems, figures, etc. They are overwhelmed due to frustration with the limited information available on these methods and products.

Miggle is where most EFers begin, and yet Miggle offers no DVD (yet), no gameplay manual, and almost no information on tweaking, painting, decaling, or basically any other relevant information. Couple this with the fact that they fail to acknowledge other compainies and their products.

The job of educating has been left to the chat board which is a sketchy information source at best.

When I came into the hobby, information was scarce and I almost quit. My Decal Master site is back in production and I expect I will create a library of information with newbies specifically in mind.

I have already written three articles and need about three more to complete the work.

Time has already told me this
 

decal master,

When you have talked to as many newbies as I have, and put on as many tournaments as I have, ...............then maybe your arguments have merit, ................but here again, ........... you are making a judgement based on ONLY what you have thought/experienced, ..........and I can appreciate that, .............however, ....................I have arrived at my conclusion based on years of experience, running tournmanets, .......and hundreds of conversationswith newbies.

Coach Rip

D-mass (how do we put together a monthly mag ?)
 

D-mass

How do we go about putting together a monthly or quarterly magazine on various segments on how to's , manufacture items (all under one roof ) miggle, ff.com (reggie), buzzball (g.diamond) and others. How about a figure detailing contest, board contest, updated standard rules section for all, and many other topics. This will be a contribution from all that wants and has something to contribute to the magazine. Also a monthly updated newbie section. How about a playbook section with play's submitted by coaches (not their best ofcourse). What about a recruiting section, ( new and innovative ways to get more people involved).

Is this something that can be done and supported and watch grow as time goes on. What if coaches agreed to send in $4 to $5 bucks for the magazine. Im asking you d-mass because i see your a computer whiz and could probably figure out how this can be done. Plugged inn is nice but i feel we need to see more in a magazine form. You see how everyone gets excited when they receive their plugged inn, imagine if something else was created. With all the beautiful pic's going around on various sites, it would look great in a magazine format. Its like getting your sports illustrated or espn mag. I know i can just print out all of these great pictures, but to have them in a mag format that i can flip through at any time. "THATS ELECTRIC FOOTBALL"

HOW ABOUT
1) THE EF INSIDER
2)THE EF GAZZETTE
3) THE ELECTRIC FOOTBALL POST OR TIMES
4) THE MINIATURE FOOTBALL MAG
5) EFPN MAG
6) ELECTRIC SPORTS R US
7) 23 HUT HUT


IM SURE SOMEONE HAS A BETTER NAME OUT THEIR. IS THIS IN THE REALM OF POSSIBILITY ? WE CAN MAKE THIS AS INFORMATIVE AS THE STOCK PAGES WITH PICTURES AND THOUGHTS FROM THE MASTERS.

Let me know if this can fly !!!!!!!!!!

broadway-dre

We are beginning to make points off the mark on this subject. It is easy to wander, I understand. But it's not too difficult to stay on topic with worthy content. We are beginning to slip into off topic discussions about playing styles, manufacturers and quarterly magazines when we haven't gotten close to those aspects yet on this particular thread. The topic of this thread is standards and if they're needed to grow the hobby. Playing styles have nothing to do with that at this point of the discussion since it is obvious (or at least it should be) that we can't play diddlie squat until we first decide on what it is we are allowed to play with (equipment). THEN a discussion can follow about how we are allowed to use said, agreed upon stuff. OR we can put less thought into our responses and continue to have "cart before the horse" discussions where not many will benefit from it.

Again, I understand that not many, if any minds are going to change on this discussion. And that's ok with me. But the man asked our opinions on standards and if they (in our opinions) are necessary for growth, not playing styles and the price of tea. If he asks us what brand of eggs we prefer are we next going to show him a milk carton, followed by an explanation of why that that type of milk is so important to us? And what of the grocery bag we toted the milk home in... paper or plastic? Not relevant. Just my opinion. But I could be wrong.

-Mike Pratt

Hold the phone . . . .
 

Mr. Pratt,

I have to respectfully disagree with you on your egg analogy. Milk preference may very well be important information when declaring our egg preference as it relates to the proper preparation of scrambled eggs. While I prefer Grade A White Eggs for fried, hard boild, and poached eggs, Brown Eggs with just the right amount of Marva Maid Vitamin D Whole Milk are best for producing light and fluffy scrambled eggs. Accept no substitutions!

Respectfully,

Rich Parks
Virginia Beach, VA

But you forgot to include the commercial farm the chicken that produced the egg came from and you didn't make mention of the cow, nor it's name, that your favorite milk came from. What was that chicken fed a steady diet of? The cow? Who collected the egg? Where they wearing gloves? What type and brand of gloves? What was the guy's/gal's name that milked the cow? Or was it milked mechanically? If so, what brand of machine. Frequency of service to breakdown ratio? :D

-Mike Pratt

My bad . . .
 

. . . . the Brown Eggs in question were produced by free range chickens that live on a chicken ranch in Rome, GA. The eggs are collected by unnamed "migrant" farm workers that are covered from head to toe in the latest in surgical grade latex body armour. Self contained breathing apperatous assures the eggs remain unspoiled by human contact. These particular chickens are fed a steady diet of corn, hand-cracked by a local boy named Jimmy, and all are examined weekly by the local vet to insure they are in peak health. As for the cows, there are far to many to name, let alone trace the milk contained in any one carton back to any specific one, as the milk of the entire herd is carefully blended together during the pasturization process for unmatched flavor. The cows are also free range, and like the chickens examined weekly by the vet. These cows are fed nothing but organicly grown alph-alpha grass, and are miled by hand in a soothing environment enhanced by the playing of Pachel Bells "Cannon" during the milking process. I hope this clears things up for you.

My Peace
 

Question
 

But what if?
 

Tweakfreak and Eightball,

if the chicken stops producing eggs, and cow stops producing milk, .............can we eat them?:D

Anthony...
 

Hello my friend, I hope all is well. Let me say this on the subject. My statements and beliefs are mine alone. I'm not speaking for any other individual or organization.

Your questions have merit, but even if you got answers to them; What would it change? Would the answers convince you to join? Would they help you to see the direction of the NHFL? I'm asking you these questions as a friend. A friend who has seen others (including NHFL members) ask you questions concerning the MPFL when their main purpose was to bait you and then attack your responses with some oh-so-clever passive/aggressive verbage.

I speak from experience... We tried to answer any and all questions concerning the Seawall Brawl. I found it ironic that those who seemingly had the most questions or pushing for information weren't in attendance, but the people who hardly asked or didn't ask anything... showed up to play.

Remember our old buddy Mr. Touchdown??? He wanted answers to his questions, even though his statements read as an attack on me and others. Someone in our community used Mr. TD as a psuedo screen name because they didn't have the guts to get in front of their comments. It's hard to take that type of bashing seriously, when you know that person probably has an inferiority complex and anonymously cowering from the shadows is what they do best.

I'm not implying that your questions are some type of veiled attack, and yes... I know you sign your name to your comments just like I do. I'm just asking... will the answers you seek, bring about some type of peace?

Personally I feel that anything national has to be supported by the majority. If it isn't, then all we have is symantics. When I say majority I'm not talking about all 50 states, I'm strictly talking about numbers. For example... Say we had only 200 people in this community if something came along and 101 people supported it; we have a majority. It doesn't matter if most of those people came from the same state; it's still a majority.

The NHFL is one of the few organizations out there trying to get something supported by the members of this community. They have to be commended for that. It's not like there's a lot of choices out there. Weirdwolf's comments are basically saying either people should step up and make the organization being talked about, or join one that's already in existence and help it grow. (Lynn if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me; because I'm not speaking for you, I'm just trying to interpret what you wrote)

I can't remember if Raiderman wrote this but... someone said that not everything is set in stone. Things can be voted on and changed but not to accommodate the few. This shows me that there's some flexability for change.

I'm no recruiter for the NHFL. My loyalties as a member of this community go:

Hobby, Electric football is the reason we are all here.
Brothers, those I consider to be like family.
TBA, I'll support my back yard league before any other.
MFU. Footballers across the country unified through fellowship.

Anthony... I would hope that anyone who decides to respond to your post will see it in the spirit that was intended, and give you the answers that you're looking for.

Peace,

Don Smith

Thanks Don
 

OK.. I'll try to answer.. but once again, like others, I can only speak for my opinion.. I am a member of the NHFL but I was not there in the beginning, nor had any input on the rules.. While I am an EF "vet", that was simply solitaire..

I think the NHFL rules were put into place by a small group of EF vets with experience in many different playing styles, who tried to come up with a set of rules with certain parameters. Those parameters have included using a lot of tried and true rules, figures, bases, and game boards. And while it was a lot of work getting a team together to play NHFL, it was not a "huge" leap nor a change of everything I have ever done.

Psst.. psst.. NO.. The rules don't please everyone.. LOL:D But again, that goes with anything.. The fact of the matter is this.. Even if our Tornado Alley EFL/Great Plains Region (and we get along and do have a true fellowship amongst us, they are all my friends) tried to hammer out a set of rules WE wanted.. There would still have to be give and take along the way.

The aspirations of the NHFL is to be 'national' and go from coast to coast.. The more the merrier.. So.. As it is now.. It's from New Jersey to Kansas.
So in the terms of "national", it's as national as it gets in the world of EF.

Shoot, the multi-billion dollar NFL is run (basically) by 32 individuals.

While there are some VERY good points made within these replies, I do not agree with a few. I'm not going to take or make issue with them on a personal level. But I will try to inject a philosophy and back it up with the facts. The facts will not change but opinions about the facts can vary. Plus I would like everyone who doesn't know to understand and those that do know be reminded.... I really DO have a life outside of EF. I am not in the EF business (licensed manufacturer). I am not on the payroll of any licensed manufacturer. I.E., I have no monetary agenda to pimp for personal gain. Additionally, I have a lot more pressing things in my life that far outrank.

I am involved because I want to see this hobby grow in a positive direction. I have been doing so in public, behind the scenes, and in the dirtiest trenches for years. I'm here because I believe in this hobby and I am no quitter.

As for the NHFL, I am only one wheel in the machine. I see no need to publicly push it down anyone's throat nor publicly defend it. But I will try to address AB's question a bit and Don's posted thoughts.

1) What makes it National in a simple explanation is it is open to ANYONE age 8 and up in the nation who wishes to participate, can field a legal team and follow the rules. This also includes conduct. It is not a political campaign organization to convince and hard sell participants. It is an effort to give those who want an OPPORTUNITY to play under one set of rules, by the coaches, for the coaches. It is an opportunity to have fun first and foremost. There is more too it than that, obviously. But if any of the explanation so far turns anyone off then they don't need deeper thought on it.

2) Numbers do not define national. If it were so then why are we so willing to call Corey "Mr. National" when he is but one. I say he DESERVES the title and he should wear it proudly. Numbers for support or number of participants isn't necessary to define national.

Look at the NFL. They have more money than whomever invested, they have billions in televised contracts, labor unions, etc. and are only represented by 32 teams and not by all 50 states. Yet the NHFL is solely comprised by minimal monetary means of its members and has a sponsorship in place so members can equal or almost equal what they spent to foot the bills back in league qualified product. Hardly the operation of THE NFL. Yet it averages 28 to 30 coaches and is only in its 3rd year...... Nearly as many teams fielded as the NFL. I, for one, can live with that.

20 or 200,000 strong, doesn't matter. What matters is the quality of membership and their commitment level. It's there for those who can agree to get along and have fun. No having to walk the plank, no hazing or secret society handshakes required. It's a simple matter of choice for membership. I can live with that and I'll pray for those that can't.

Is the light bulb national. It's that and then some...global. Did Edison take a vote? Better yet, did he wait until the light bulb was accepted nationally to put it out there? No. He put it out there as an invention or vision to him and an opportunity to the entire world. the NHFL or any other EF organization is hardly as big and certainly not as important. It is an opportunity. No mater what is said by membership or those outside of it, I see the NHFL, the MFU and like organizations as a national effort on behalf of the hobby and an opportunity. Nothing more and certainly nothing less.

****ADDED**** I wanted to add for clarity to Anthony that I didn't take your question or line of questioning the wrong way, so to speak. It was a legitimate question - one that was asked before dropping a single foundational stone to erect the NHFL. Points within your question were and are paramount to address before construction began.

-Mike Pratt

Somewhere between the chicken and the egg, this post lost it's substance.

For Goodness sake, let it go guys...

???
 

Way to go Rich! You are always the fly in the toothpase!:p

Getting back to the main jist of this post, I think there are other things more important than having a "standardized" way of playing to get more people interested in EF. Let's look at us for a moment. Collectively, we are a bunch of 40 - 50 somethings playing a game that we were introduced to as children. But why are we still playing? And more importantly, why aren't there more younger guys playing? I think it's no secret that most guys in the 40 -50 age bracket played this game when they were younger, in fact it's hard to find someone who didn't play it. But why are we the only ones who still do? There must have been something special that took place in our collective youth that makes us still want to play.

Fast forward to todays youth. Is it possible to get them as excited as we were/are? They are raised on Nintendo and PlayStation. They use computers all day long. They crave anything that's technologically complex. EF is as technologically advanced as a stone. We're facing an uphill battle.

I think our best bet is college kids. They've been playing Madden games most of their lives. They're a little older and perhaps looking for something that isn't being spoon fed to them. What we need to do is get into the college dorms and get these kids interested. Show them what can be done with the players. If we can give them something that they can hold in their hands, design and manipulate to what they want it to do or be, then maybe we can get more people hooked and playing again. Standardized playing would be nice, but for now, what we need is to get guys out from in front of the TV or PC.

Hopefully I am not out of place, being from OZ.

I think a good model to look at is Subbuteo and FISTF (FEDERATION INTERNATIONAL SPORTS TABLE FOOTBALL) http://fistf.com/. Subbuteo as some of you know is basically table soccer - very popular in the sixties and seventies. It's a game that has been around for a long time and lots of people played it as kids in England and Australia - much like EF.

FISTF has managed to grow the sport internationally by having a standard set of rules which means that people from around the world can go to to a FISTF venue and play – not having to worry about different home rules etc. Is it the only way to play Subbuteo – NO, but if you are playing competitively then it’s the way to go. Does it suit everyone who plays Subbuteo – No, but what does.

Looking at the posts I think that the NHFL provides a basis for a similar organisation. I wish you guys luck.

Hope to get to a Miggle convention one day and meet some of the people who appear to be so passionate about this game.

Here is an example of what having standardised rules can do for a game.

Here is the FISTF list of coming events (note the countries that you can play in)
11. FISTF calendar
Added tournaments: -
18/11/06 - Satellite in Truro, Nova Scotia, Canada ; CM: Gary Caven - gcaven@hotmail.com
18-19/11/06 - FISTF Masters in Malta ; CM: Mario Spiteri - mario.spiteri@fistf.com
18-19/11/06 - IO in Dumfries (SCO) ; CM: Iain Bell - iainbell54@tiscali.co.uk
25-26/11/06 - GP/IO (teams) in Berlin (GER) ; CM: Marcus Tilgner - mtilgner@arcor.de - http://home.arcor.de/mtilgner/intern...l/gp06-inv.htm
02-03/12/06 - IO in Issy-les-Moulineaux (FRA) ; CM: Thomas Ponté - thomalf.roucas@wanadoo.fr
09-10/12/06 - Satellite in Almada (POR) ; CM: Sérgio Ramos - manarssa2@gmail.com - manarssa2@hotmail.com
09-10/12/06 - IO in Buenos Aires (ARG) ; CM: Gregorio Caro SolÃ**s at greg@redsalta.com
17/12/2006 - Satellite in Athens (GRE) ; CM: Christos Archimandritis - info@poep.gr
13-14/01/07 - IO/GP (teams) in Temploux (BEL) ; CM: Benoît Jadot - benoit.jadot@just.fgov.be
20-21/01/07 - GP in Oldham (ENG) ; CM: Alan Collins - alan.collins@fistf.com
20-21/01/07 - Satellite in Roma (ITA) ; CM: Antonello Rodriquez - antonellorodriquez@libero.it (teams on saturday)
27/01/07 - Satellite in Paris (FRA) ; CM: Thomas Ponté - thomalf.roucas@wanadoo.fr
28/01/07 - IO in Paris (FRA) ; CM: Thomas Ponté - thomalf.roucas@wanadoo.fr
03-04/02/07 - IO in Athens (GRE) ; CM: Lazaros Papakonstantinou - papalazaros@yahoo.com
03-04/02/07 GP/IO (teams) in Verviers (BEL) - Benoit Vanwissen - bvanwissen@tiscali.be
10-11/02/07 - Major in Elbeuf (FRA) ; CM: Nicolas Lefebvre - nicolefebvre@free.fr or nicolefebvre@neuf.fr
17-18/02/07 - IO in Knighton (WAL) ; CM: Algy Taylor - algy.taylor@tfhost.com - www.caru.tfhost.com
17/02/07 - IO in Cospicua (MLT) ; CM: Mario Spiteri - mario.spiteri@fistf.com
18/02/07 - GP in Cospicua (MLT) ; CM: Mario Spiteri - mario.spiteri@fistf.com
24-25/02/07 - GP in Odense (DEN) ; CM: Jesper Staal Nielsen - jstaal@goddagnet.dk
03-04/03/07 - Major in Mons (BEL) ; CM: Olivier Père - olivier.pere@skynet.be
10-11/03/07 - Satellite in Foz do Douro (POR) ; CM: Norberto Miguel at ngoncalv@smc.smces.es & João Rodrigues at joaorodrigues.norpecas@oninet.pt
17-18/03/07 - GP & IO + GP for teams in Washington DC(USA) - CM: Zach Walker - ferdy22@gmail.com
17-18/03/07 - IO in Milton Keynes (ENG) ; CM: Jeremy Bradley - Jeremybradley49@yahoo.co.uk - http://www.freewebs.com/tspawhitestar/
24-25/03/07 - GP & IO + GP for teams in Windsor, Ontario (CAN) ; CM:
Wolfgang Haas - haas.wolfgang@gmail.com
24-25/03/07 - IO in Reggio Emilia (ITA) ; CM: Marco Lamberti - marco.lamberti@bancaprofilo.it
31/03&01/04/07 - GP in Amsterdam (NED) ; CM: Robbert Thoen - romithoen@casema.nl
07-08/04/07 - GP in Beausoleil (FRA) ; CM: Alexandre Popoff - alexpp2@wanadoo.fr
14-15/04/07 - IO in Traiskrichen (AUT) - Christian Bluemel - chris23_at@yahoo.com
28-29/04/07 - GP in Hampden Park, Glasgow (SCO) ; CM: Mike Burns - mike@worldtablesoccer.com
12-13/05/07 - GP in Vienne (AUT) ; CM: Markus Jurik - mjurik@chello.at
12-13/05/07 - IO in Almada (POR) ; Sérgio Ramos ; manarssa2@gmail.com - manarssa2@hotmail.com
20/05/07 - Satellite in Athens (GRE) ; CM: Lazaros Papakonstantinou - papalazaros@yahoo.com
26-27/05/07 - Major in Bologna (ITA) ; CM: Riccardo Marinucci - botigers@infinito.it
02-03/06/07 - IO in Murcia (ESP) ; CM: Juan C. Granados - granadosjc@terra.es
09-10/06/07 - GP in Athens (GRE) ; CM: Georgos Dimakeas - georgiosdi@panafonet.gr
23/06/07 - Satellite in Yorkshire (ENG) ; CM: Paul Lawrenson - Paullawrenson177@hotmail.com
30/06&01/07 - GP in Roma (ITA) ; CM: Enrico Guidi - exywj@libero.it
08/07/07 - Satellite in Dolo (ITA) ; CM: Davide Lazzari - davila@shineline.it
14-15/07/07 - IO in London (ENG) ; CM: Les Commons - les.commons@blueyonder.co.uk
21-22/07/07 - Satellites in Templeuve (BEL) ; CM: Vincent Coppenolle at Vincent.coppenolle@assur.cbc.be
21-22/07/07 - GP in Foz do Douro (POR) ; CM: Norberto Miguel at ngoncalv@smc.smces.es & João Rodrigues at joaorodrigues.norpecas@oninet.pt
28-29/07/07 - GP in Corbera de Llobregat (ESP) ; CM: Arturo Martinez - artmartinez@mixmail.com
11-12/08/07 - Major in Mattersburg (AUT) ; CM: Robert Lenz - robert.lenz@gmx.at
19/08/07 - Satellite in Pembroke (MLT) ; Karl Camilleri - makhami@msn.com
31/08-02/09/07 - World Cup in Les Herbiers (FRA) ; CM: Laurent Garnier at cdmfdt2007@atenaconcept.com & Heinz Eder at heinz.eder@fistf.com

Standards Needed
 

With all of the questions being asked on the miggle board about the convention tournament, it’s obvious our hobby is lacking in standards. Fortunately the NHFL has taken all the guesswork out so that every player knows what he can use for equipment and how to prepare for an NHFL event before he gets there. The NHFL represents our best approach for a national players association so far, the rule-set is fun, well tested, and improved every year. The collection of caretakers in charge have done their homework and spent many personal hours recruiting and perfecting and have not asked for anything in return except for all players to have and promote a good time playing EF.
Thanks NHFL, Ray F

From a newbie
 

I have read this thread from the start and have opted not to respond until now.I came into this hobby 11 months ago on Dec. 25th. To start with I have found it VERY easy to have all my questions on any subject pertaining to the hobby answered.If standardization & nationalization is what you want for the hobby then there is only ONE organization that has been presented to me in these 11 months.I myself want this.So what I did is JOINED it. Is it exactly what I want? The answer is NO.But I liken it to people complaining about the Government or politicians and then you ask them DID YOU VOTE? And they respond NO.Where I am heading with this is if you want it to happen then be a part of it and then you have a say in it.I am a part of a National organization now and believe you me I will speak out about the changes that need to be made.I also understand that not all of the changes I want to see will happen,it is a world of compromises.I probably havent stated this as intelligent as some others may be able to but the point is it has to start somewhere and develop.It takes involvement so I repeat HAVE YOU VOTED?

Geno H

I think you stated it very well Geno. Compromise and involvement are the key and the great thing is that at the end of the day after we have played all our NHFL games and completed the season we can still construct rules and play in our own areas in whatever form we want to. Even though the TAEFL is also the Great Plains division in the NHFL we still can have a TAEFL season at some point in the year based on our own ideas but for that one time of year I can show up at the NHFL event and play someone who I have never met and each of us know what is expected with in the rules and among our players. I also want to welcome back our Aussie friend. We missed you over the last few months.

Couldn't have said it any better than Geno and Lynn.
 

I agree with you two completely. The fact that we can play under one umbrella of rules for nationwide competition is a thrill. And we could then take those rules, tweak them a little bit for our own league and play thru another season in the spring, and see if our rule changes will work or if they won't.
If they do work, we can submit those findings to the NHFL rules committee. If we find they don't work, we can try something else amongst our own league.
The idea is by submitting any possible rule changes we would have more weight if they've been tried throughout a full season, for research and development purposes.
Car racing sactioning bodies have had this same problem for decades. It's awesome when a guy can pull his car trailer anywhere in the USA and race with a set of rules that everyone else races by.
Join the NHFL and see if the rules are to your liking, they very well might be. But keep an open mind, not every rule will benefit your team, and remember, other coaches teams will face the same obstacles.

I wasn't going to reply to this post but I feel I must. This reply is in MY OWN OPINION! It is not a personal attack on ANYBODY . To me the word standardization means status-quo. People who know me know I don't follow that rule. I like what I like. I play solitaire electric football and I also play electric football with my nephews. We use a format that we like. The offensive coach can stop the board at any time and make pivots. The defense can not turn the board off but it can make pivots when the board is off. We do this to keep an 11 and 13 year old interested. However, they are interested with the NHFL. I signed up for a franchise the first year but did not play. I could not play in any following seasons due to personal and job requirements. But now that things are straight and I have more time on my hands we may join the league. And for those that do not know I have become visually impaired. So the Triple Threat QB is a task for me and that is why we use the passing sticks. I still work at my job at the New Castle Police Dept. but had to take a deminishing role. I will still try and master the Triple threat QB and will hopefully join the NHFL one day. But the one thing I do have when playing electric football is FUN! THATS WHAT IT IS ABOUT!