Enough is enough. Let's vote!
 

4.0 or 3.3??? Which should be officially considered the standard weight limit for miniature football? It's time we put this issue behind us once and for all. Don't sit on the fence any longer. EVERYONE VOTE!

There's over 260 guys signed up on this board, I want to see at least 200 votes one way or another. Even if you could care less, pick one and go with it. Let's make one of these weight limits the officially sanctioned limit for the MFCA so we can go forward in our promotion of the hobby

Vote NOW, or forever hold your peace!

Poll
 

Thanks for posting the poll Al. Very interested in seeing how this turns out.

As a reminder, this is not to say that everyone has to play at this limit. You and your league can still play at any weight limit you want. This is going to be "the official MFCA santioned weight limit", so that anyone can build a team to this limit, and will be able to play against anyone else, anywhere. This will also make it easier for new people to have a goal to set their teams to. Again, we are not trying to force anyone to play at this limit. We are just trying to pick a limit that everyone can aspire to.

Thanks to everyone for voting!

No vote coming from me on this one. I don't think the poll answers the discussion that we were having. It's not about making one or the other the official weight.

Its about what classes should there be.

Stock/Standard (3.3 class) These are figures originally designed for the hobby in their basic state. Customs can be included with additions of facemasks and accessories as long as the overall weight doesn't exceed 3.3.
Or should it just be stock, no changes or modifications other than paint, facemasks, chinstraps. (the essentials)? Maybe Stock comes in 2 classes?

Modified at 4.0

Unlimited

I would like to turn the discussion to definitions for the 3 or 4 classes.

I thought that the classes were pretty much already established. There's the 3.3 and under, the 4.0 and the unlimited. Most of the discussions in the past seem to go between 3.3 and 4.0. As has already been discussed, what about the new guys? They are confused, because there are several choices. Why can't we, the MFCA, the most experienced group of people in this hobby, come to a compromise and once and for all make an official 'weight limit' that everyone can agree is considered the 'official' weight to play at? The other classes will still be there, and everyone will still be free to play at whatever weight they want. There's been talk about it, but no solution. So, I say let's vote and let the majority rule. We'll make whatever weight wins the 'official' weight limit, and the others will be simply that, other weight limits?

Its not one weight pitted against another!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No vote here either.

Its setting standards for our hobby that I am interested in.


Geno H

I thought the same seeing the poll. Choosing one weight will subjectivly means "the right weight against the wrong weights" in my way of thinking. ;)

I can understand sort of where you are coming from, Geno, but how can we set standards for the hobby when some guys are playing at 3.3 , some at 4.0 and others with no limits at all? How can you define a standard without a compromise from everyone?

This isn't about pitting 3.3 vs 4.0 and which is better. This is about do we say that 3.3 is the standard weight limit, and 4.0 is considered the heavyweight limit, or do we consider 4.0 the standard and call the 3.3 the lightweight (or maybe 'classic') limit? We need some sort of standardization in this hobby. I mean, we all agree that a football field is 100 yards long from goal to goal, that you have to gain 10 yards for a first down, that a field goal is worth 3 points, etc. Those are standards set in the rules of playing the game. We more or less all agree that the regular Miggle, Buzzball, FF.net figures are considered the standard sizes, while the old Gothom gorilla figures are considered oversized. So why can't we all come up with a weight that is considered the standard limit, with other classes being considered just that, other classes?

I would think that this would greatly simplify things for new players getting into the hobby so that they would have an idea of what to aim for, a standard weight limit. If they want to play in other weight classes, nobody is stopping them. But at least they have one official weight to shoot for.

I like that term ! thmbsp$ it can used for beginners (using figs from miggle or tudors sets) or "old school" veteran players too ! thmbsp$


But even if I understand what you're explaining, why set up one standard ? I take (another time ! :rtfl: ) my good old slot racing example : when you run stock tjets, you don't say it 's the standard, and if you run strong magnet cars or stuff like that, you don't say it's a standard either. You just say I run "stock" or I run "neo class". You see the analogy with the weight classes in MF. thmbsp$

Having worked on some rules..
 

for the MFCA recently - I had idea that even created official classes??

Where in your poll does it give any reference to what you just wrote?
Your poll chooses one or the other it doesnt say lets come up with 3 classes.



I would do it like this.

Stock class 3.3 and under
Mod class 4.0 and under
Unlimited 4.0 and up
You can name them whatever way you want.


For the record I prefer 4.0.... BUT..... the Coaches I play with prefer 3.3 so thats what I play. I see a need to establish the standards regardless of what is my favorite.

Geno H

Dimitri, your slot car analogy is a good one. As I recall, basically there are 1:24, 1:32, 1:43 and HO, which can be spilt into 1:64 and 1:87 if you want. A new person to slot cars would be as equally confused about it as a new person is to miniature football. It would be greatly simplified if there was a governing board for slot car racing who said that 1:43 was going to be the standard racing catagory, and the other classes were either larger or smaller. This was, a new person would think, OK, I'll go with the official 1:43 class and see if I like it. He would then have a greater chance of finding others that also race at 1:43 because that is the 'official' class for slot cars. He may find that he likes HO better and switch later on, but at least he has a starting point to go with.

It's the same way with MF. Where does a new person start? 3.3, 4.0, 3.5, unlimited??? Let's make one the 'official' weight to start with, and guys can always move around once they're comfortable playing. The main idea is simplifying the choices until a person understands the 'why's' and how's' of playing MF.

I voted 4.0, BUT, I don't see why there has to be a standard. Leagues are dictating what limits to play at anyway. We just have to choose according to our own preference. I picked 4.0 only because that's where I'm playing at and because I like using the heavier figures.

I have several packs of unpainted Miggle players that maybe I'll do up for a college version at a lighter weight, but not until I get my pro team situated first.

Personaly, I understand what you're saying, but I simply don't think that way : in slot racing, yesterday the scale prefered was the h0 scale, then the 1/24 in the 70-80, now the 1/32 is the "standard"...but standard only in europe, because USA stills prefering h0 scale...but only the people aged of 40 years old or more...but children prefers 1/43...but all that is changing, because people run digital slot cars now...etc, etc....you see what I mean : the standard is that there is no standard :rtfl:


It's why I 'm more in the same spirit than Geno, Weirdwolf and other guys here : in my mind, it's make more sense to classify diferent things about their particularity, more than classify them from a (good or bad) scale value, because making ONE standard specify that other classes/wieghts/categories are NOT standard, in my thinking.


SO...I agree more with that classification :


classic class for newbies (using standard miggle or tudor gamesets) and old school players (and/or players using a specific ruleset wich is better with 3.3g figs, for example arena football on model 500 board, perhaps)

heavy class for big size customizers, big board owners (and/or players using a specific ruleset wich is better with 4g figs), high speed miniature football, etc, etc...

free class for...all the other ones : fantasy players (we can imagine one day playing MF with orcs and trolls, why not ? the figs already exists), very specific rulesets (squad total weight rule, like Reginald spoke about one day, or big linemen rule like I play in france : 4.0g for skill players, 4.2g for linemen)


My two cents (even if I am a beginner, I'm french, and you know how much we love to hear our voice sound :rtfl: )

WHAT ABOUT 3.6
 

COACHES

i POSTED why not make the standard 3.6 some time ago. Since we are at a stand still with 2 weight classes, 3.2 and 4.0. A compromise as a standard would be 3.6 You have the option to either walk 4 paces north, or 4 paces south, to arrive at 3.2 and 4.0. Also, most ff.net figues shake out to about 3.6 without adding any weight.

We need to come to some sort of conclusion and have it in writing.
Plus, 3.6 is a standard where no favortism would be present from the 4.0 lovers and the 3.2 lovers.

So, a new comer see's up in lights, that the standard for this enite hobby is 3.6. His research will show him that some like to play lighter, and some like to play at heavier weihts. BUT A CONCRETE NUMBER FOR A ASSOCIATION TO STAND BY WOULD BE NICE.


mantaraydre

Geno, I wasn't trying to come up with different classes. I'm just trying to come up with one. One that we can say is "the official weight limit of the MFCA". Right now it looks like most guys like the idea of 4.0 being it. Therefore, if the votes hold up, we can say that the official weight limit of the MFCA is 4.0 grams. Now, we can finally move on and say that the 3.3 gram limit is the 'classic' or lightweight division, and the unlimited weight is the heavyweight division.

Now, when we finally start getting around to promoting this hobby, which was one of the goals when we started this whole thing, we can all tell everyone that 4.0 grams is the official weight limit to play. Then, after they get their feet wet and realise that they love playing MF as much as the rest of us do, we can introduce them to playing at a 3.3 or unlimited weight limits, or any other weight limits guys want to promote. We need a starting point, and right now it looks like 4.0 is going to be it.

And by the way, none of my teams is over 3.3 grams, but I also voted 4.0 because it made the most sense to me, in order to allow for custom figures and whatever new bases may come out in the future. You'll understand when the new Tweak comes out. ;)

Tally
 

3.3 = 0 votes
4.0 = 14 votes


Hhhmmmmmmmmmm!

I LIKE.....
 

7.0
:nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh: :nhnh:


4.0


VINCE

Here is what I think we are trying to achieve.
When I was into model railroading back in high school, the first book I picked up explained clearly on page 1, the sizes of model railroading from N scale to O scale. None of these were the "standard". They were preferences to a persons space availability and just what appealed to him. I chose to go with HO scale because it appealed the most to me.

The difference between model railroading and us is they had a "page 1" that explained,clearly, the scales and advantages and disadvantages to each. We don't have that in EM-F, at least not officially.

I want to be able to hand a book to a newbie and on page 1 he can see that there are 3 weight classes and also explain that leagues in his area may have variables to these, but these 3 weight classes are standards to begin with.

Capeche?

Lynn, I can see what you are saying. It would be great to have an actual book of MF that would explain all of that. But look at this from a newbies eyes for a moment. Here you are, you love football and see this 'new' game. You're interested in playing because of all the great figures and boards that you see. Then it hits you. Do I play at 3.2? 3.3? 3.5?? 4.0?? 4.5??? unlimited weight??? Arrgghhh.... Maybe I'll go back to Madden. mtmstnks mtmstnks mtmstnks

Let's make it easy for them. The official weight limit is 4.0 There are other weight classes that you can play by, but 4.0 is where the MFCA recommends that you start. Now the newbie can breeth a sigh of relief. OK, I'll start with the 4.0 and see how it goes. Now he has a limit to try, one that hopefully everyone else here will have at least one team to play against him with because we'll all be prepaired for them with our 4.0 'official' team to go along with all our other teams that are set for other classes.

We will always have the 3.3 and unlimited and whatever else someone comes out with, but to start, we can all recommend the 4.0. thmbsp$

It doesn't make it easy to start, believe me ! The guy who just bought a miggle gameboard set, or found an used tudor set will have anything but fab5 teams and standard rookie bases and ttc bases. FAR from the 4.0 grams limit.

SO he will have to buy a precision scale (= more money spent, more work before start playing, more technical confusion since the beginner will discover that the stuff he bought is not "standard" :eek: ), and find how to weight all his athletes to match the "standard" 4.0grams (base lead additions, or new MF or jennings teams... = more money spent). And if after that, he want to paint the teams, add facemasks, he will have to setup the weight another time to fit the paint, modelling flock, facemask and whatever he added to the figure.

ANd what about people coming in the hobby buying Diamond products ? Will you tell them that their diamond fig+diamond base combo is not "standard" ? You see what I mean.


When I started a few month ago, I just had some iron men fab5 teams, a few ttc and rookie miggle bases. I started to add customs, buy a precision scale and stuff like that after a while. But I believe I played my first MF months outside of the 4.0 grams "standard" ;)


It's the weakness of a unique standard. Of course, we always can use the other weight classes, but you'll see that it will confuse beginners, and depreciate veterans choices too or even some MF current (or future) products.

well said...Dimitri
 

Dimitri,

I have been saying what you just said for years, .........but they do what they want to do. It is this madness that makes me, a manufacturer, just pull back from coming out with new products.

People are making statements that make no sense what so ever about a "standard"

Standards
 

I am going to go ahead and post a recent proposed standards that I sent to the MFCA Board of Directors. Since my email got no responses from the majority or the Board of Directors and it does pertain to this discussion.

George, all I am trying to do with this is to set some standards for manufacturers like yourself as a guide for developing future products for miniature football.

Realize this is merely a proposal and my own personal ideas. Nothing has been adopted at this point. I would like everyone's feedback on this, preferably by PM, but if you feel that you need to make comments publicly then please do so.

.
 

I think a player weighs what he weighs. If you have a light figure, don't put him on the line, etc. Let the players be the weight they are without adding anything. I don't understand people adding lead tape and other things to their figures. Does a cornerback wear a weight jacket so he can weigh as much as a lineman? Let the guys be what they are without adding anything. Not really hard to figure out. I'll take a good looking detailed figure over a heavier figure any day.

I agree....
 

Throw this topic in the trash


Vincent

3.3 or 4.0
 

This has been interesting, following this discussion its important for one reason, level playing field. The whole weight debate is about leveling the playing field no matter what u play with. 3.3 is usually associated with stock products while 4.0 which has always been associated with ff.net & customizer friendly weight class. Obviously if 3.3 was chosen that would slow the boom of newbies creating there own teams, which is essential considering the growing costs of custom work, also stunting creativity, by dictating weight that cant be met customizing, goodby green stuff to heavy. 4.0 seems to me to be the best, because it allows stock teams that are light to compete with the heaviest custom teams not exceeding 4.0, by means stated here, I bet I never chop my stands again to play in a torny. The real importance of clarifing this is that U no longer have to build a new team every time U travel, of course your local leagues can continue as is, but when U travel U know your team is legal. I think that would also promote participation because now your league team is your travel team imagine that.ltsplbll

Yep. What he said.



I think some of you guys have it wrong about the "standard" it does not relate to the type of figures you have but the maximum weight. The stock figures are great and my favorite figs are the straight arm corners and BB Mr. Everthing and they are ALL starters on my team, and not every player is 4.0

But there is so much more you can do with a max weight.

More is better.

More choices = more creativity = more fun

It has worked well in competition and I believe it should be the new standard for advanced competition. No one is saying that you can only get figures from one manufacturer. That's just stupid. Being able to customize your players and adjust their weight is an essential part of the modern game. 3.2 grams as a LIMIT is just too restrictive and for competition I just think its a thing of the past.

I love this idea. Right now making a team for Dixie 4.1 , Beltsville Bash, 3.3 , CBSMF 4.0 BAMA BLAST, UNLIMITED FOR LINEMEN. So my work is heavy keeping buying figures to make weight for different leagues or tournament.

I agree with Treks1
 

thmbsp$ thmbsp$ thmbsp$ thmbsp$ thmbsp$ thmbsp$ thmbsp$ thmbsp$

What a waste of topic space, I feel like we set the wayback machine to 2005.

I play and love 4.0, but the standard should stay at 3.2/3.3 DONE!

You basically have:

3.2/3.3

4.0

Unlimited Weight

What else do you need? All this setting standards talk is ridiculous.

We already have them.

We have all the weight classes we need to cover everyone, the figures are basically in the same scale give or take.

What a waste of time.

Instead of focusing on scales that are not needed, we should focus on recruiting materials, instructional DVDs, league building packages, sponsorships and advertising deals, etc...

Dimitri, I can respect your concerns, especially since you have just recently joined the hobby. Therefore, you have the new, or rookie, coach point of view that the rest of us lack. However, there are a couple of things I want to say.

First off, no matter what limit you put on the weight (unless, of course you are talking about unlimited weight), anyone who wants to play against others will want to buy a scale. Why? Because it is the only way to be sure that his figure/base combination is within guidelines. Even at the 3.3 standard, how will a person know if his figures are at 3.3 or under. Perhaps if a person only uses stock painted Miggle players he could be certain, but what if he paints his own team? And how many coats of paint could he put on before that figure is too heavy? Plus, what if a new person sees some FF figures and wants to use them? With the 3.3 limit, most of his players would be over the limit and he would not have any clue as to how much to lighten them without a scale. Let's face it. No matter what, a scale is pretty much a required piece of equipment these days. Most are not that expensive. I think I paid $12 or $13 for mine a couple of years ago off Ebay.

We are talking about a weight standard, not a figure standard. Any Miggle, Buzzball or FF figure should be considered 'standard'. Any Miggle, Buzzball of F5 base is also considered 'standard'. It's simply a matter of how much can you weigh them and still be considered within guidlines of what is considered a 'standard' playing weight. Adding weight to figures and bases is very easy, much more so than tweaking.

Dimitri, you state that you are playing above the 4.0 because that is where you made your figures. Perhaps if we had already had a 4.0 'standard', you might have been more carefull about how much your players weighed when you were making them and could have used them in tournamnets someday. As it is, being isolated over there in France, weight wasn't that important to you. But, if there had been a large following over there, you might have had more concern about being at the same limits as what the rest of them were playing at. I don't know if I'm making any sense to you. I wish I could say it in French to make it easier to understand.

The purpose of this is to not confuse beginners. This has been an ongoing problem with this hobby, too many weight classes, too many different rule sets, too many different board sizes. There is absolutely no standardization whatsoever in miniature football. It's time we did something. This is the first step, hammering out a basic weight that anyone can play at and be on an equal level with others. By the looks of the votes, it appears that most people are favoring a 4.0 limit. This would allow any combination of figures and bases that are commonly available. Hopefully, we can get through this and then move on to other 'standardizations' that will only make the hobby easier and more fun for new players.

No vote here either. I soon will have both a 3.3 and a 4.0

Classes
 

I could state as KingAtl said it's becoming like JOB building so many different teams and time and expense:dohdh: , but I understand and after a year, I'm almost done and then I can focus on playing.

It is enjoyable to customize figs, but with just less than a year in the hobby and ALL the leagues I CHOSE to play in, just a bit over whelming at times, but I made the choice.

I do agree there should be classes and my analogy is to a professional competitive combat handgun shooting sport which is an international sport, IPSC even aired on ESPN. (I know, some of you "cringe" when I speak of it) They have stock (limited), out of the box gun, no mods, can't shoot as fast or accurate and Unlimited, race guns, fast, smooth accurate, (Indy car)...lots of mods and money invested...

There were a lot of debates in that sport as well at which was "best"...bottom-line the newbie choose what interested them so I like the class idea.

I am just as bad at 3.3, 3.5 or 4.0 or 4.1...I don't discriminate:) . I will however say a year ago being brand new, I was a bit "intimidated" by a fast board, now I prefer it, so I'm starting to lean towards 4.0 and will have a better answer after the DSMFL 4.0 college league, 4.0 Pro Carolina league and CBSMF, 4.0 experience I will gain shortly.

I'll defer my vote...but yes to classes

Joe Ram
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space"

One reason to vote is this...what do you want your MFCA convention tournament to be played at?

I voted 4.0

This is my vote because to me the 4.0 total weight limit is far and away the most impressive class in terms of playability and creativity. This is how I feel we should showcase our great annual convention tournament. We already have the annual Miggle tournament and others for the traditional 3.2 standard. Heck, I love the Miggle tournament...long live the EFL super bowl.

Just my 2 cents (again). That probably makes about 40 cents now for me on this topic. :rtfl:

Regards,
Joe

MEGAWATZ AND TREKS 1
 

MEGA/TREKS1

Two incredible post you put on here. Those are the convincing arguments to raise the bar to 4.0. it cant be made any clearer than that.

I think it is ridiculous to create 5000 teams because an individual has strong feelings and leans towards a paticualr weight. if if was 4.0, Your 3.2 and 4.0 players will be included under 1 umbrell. No one said start at 3.7 and end at 4.0.

Dont you like diversity on a team. Your lineman can be 4.0 and your wr's you can leave at 3.2 YOU WOULD ONLY HAVE TO WEIGHT THE LINEMAN. A 4.0 standard allows room for that. WHILE YOU KEEP YOUR 3.2.. aNY PLAYER IN THE COUNTRY CAN HAVE THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS ON HIS TEAM. But you want to restrict him to 3.2

Will it kill you to place a strip of golf tape under the figures base. Come on, how long would that take. 40 seconds

I still have not heard a valid reason why a coach who plays at 3.2 feels his figures would not perform the same OR MUCH BETTER at 4.0.
Did you even try it for a moment

What if a 3.2 coach played a 4.0 coach and the field was turned up at a nice rate. But the 3.2 team keeps falling over. the 4.0 team hardly ever falls over. YOU CAN BEST BELIEVE THE COACH WHO HAS THE 3.2 TEAM IS GOING TO ASK THE OTHER COACH TO TURN THE FIELD DOWN

Mantaraydre

Here is a shocker ...... I voted 3.3 .
This is the weight that most of the new guys start out with.
I think this should be considered as the standard weight or " entry level " .
However I only play at 4.0 and love it.

When a newcomer to the hobby or an adult wishing to take up his childhood game buys a new gameboard, I would guess they buy them off of Ebay or from Miggle. The games come with rules that Miggle has always included in the games. Now, eventually they will go to the Miggle site to order teams and bases and check out the chatsite. We all know that the Miggle chatsite is very quiet, and I'm fine with that as it makes my job easy.

I've proposed a few times to the Landsmans that we should put up a banner on the Miggle chatsite that would read, "If you are interested in a more advanced style of gameplay and rules, please visit this site" and have a link put up to the MFCA site. For them, they are only aware of the stock figures they receive with the games, which would put them in the 3.2 category of a player, of which they don't realize. Once they come over to the MFCA site to see what is "advancing" in the hobby, it only betters the hobby to recruit more players, and this may keep the hobby alive in the future.

Now, if the pole was for, What should the weight be for the MFCA convention and tournament? I don't think we'd all be having this discussion? And I'd probably even vote.

I'm working on the banner thing and I've also mentioned to them for me to re-write the manual in the games to mention the different weight classes and ways to customize the figures to reach the 4.0 level of play.

Thoughts?

MICHIGAN JOE, EX CELL
 

JOE


As always, excellent post !!!!!!!!! You guy make alot of sense.

Mantaraydre

It makes sense. THe fact is that if I find some fellows to play regularly (club/league) I'll certainly redo (franny j boy method) my figs plateforms to match the 4.0g, to make the things simplier and match the 4.0g class. I 'm not against standards or classes, I understand 4.0g is the fashionable (and perhaps the best) way to go these days, but I simply prefer the equal but diferent classes (classic-heavy-free like many sports/hobbies) idea more ;)



edit :


I know you did not wanted to say "that brand is standard, this one is not", but perhaps someones will think that way : what I meaned is simply to keep in mind all the professional actors of the MF scene in that official weight question thmbsp$