Be Careful When Streamlining Rule Books
 

When the Shootout rulebook was created, it had more than 90 pages. Some things were obvious to a person who had football intellect but for others, it was not so obvious. Some years later, I got a paralegal degree where I had to train under some pretty good law professors. They told me never leave anything to interpretation because it became the judgment moreso of the individual, not the law.

Having written many engineering documents and tech journals over the years, it was always common practice as an engineer to make things "idiot-proof". That way, anyone could take your test plan and run the test cases because you would have simplified it.

I know some of us look at rules as useless readings but it does have meaning. When I wrote the rulebook, I felt that every page was important because it gave explanation to most interpretations. I saw a game this weekend where there was a question on linemen being checked in as a receiver. In the original rulebook, it clearly is stated that "On every play, the offensive coach must make aware to the official and opposing coach that said lineman is an eligible receiver".

The question was argued that this was not stated in the rulebook. In our quest to streamline things, we may do ourselves a bit of unjust in that a relevant argument can be taken for such a case. If the rule would have been made clear in the rulebook, then that coach has no case. However, because it is not found in the rulebook, he can and should argue the validity of the rule.

So essentially, instead of streamlining a rulebook that leaves out much for interpretation, add to a rulebook even if it has 100 pages. This represents the laws that you are playing by and abide by as a league. I am all for taking out "fat" but I did not write the rules just to be writing but I tried to foresee scenarios and cases like the one mentioned above to stay "ahead of the game".

If it were my call, we still would be playing with a rulebook of right at 100 pages and would probably add more pages as it is warranted. If I ever decide to have a tournament or league, I definitely will go back to the original rulebook and try to sync it with the streamlined version. I don't like to leave anything to chance or better yet, interpretation.

Reginald Rutledge

I think you are correct in not leaving anything out so there will no problems but in the game in question that was not what happened.

The problem was that I checked him in as a lineman and the offical who was doing stats and running 5 clocks and reffing did not here me.

To me if he did not here me to a 100% degree there should not have been a foul called.

Also I coached High school football for over 18 years and no the rules very well. The high schools in Texas are very much in line with the college rules.

The rule set Reggie is talking about was made for the NFL and in college and High school you do not have to declare a lineman as eligiable most people do but you dont have to .
If you dont and you throw a pass and that lineman goes down field or touches the ball or catches a pass then there will be a pen.

I talked to Greg this weekend and he said you have to declare a lineman as a Reciever but after reading the colleges rule from first to last page there is no rule I thing it should be change or added.

You're right to a degree Doug, however...
 

it is still your job (and any of us) to make sure the ref hears you!!!

You even said that the ref was doing stats, handling 5 clocks, and trying to work the camera as well. That's a lot of pressure for one person to do all those things!

Now, if that is the case, I probably would have tapped the ref on the arm and told him just to make sure he knows. Or I would have screamed out loud that "I have a lineman eligible." Chances are, I would have told the other team too just so they would be alerted to the situation.

This was a good experience for you and it will ring true for others. I do think that rule need to be put back into the CBSMF rulebook immediately (as well as a few others) so that up the road, no heart-feelings are hurt. I also think there needs to be a distinct designation of what a lineman is from the standpoint of how a figure should look to the eligible number.

I've got linemen from the 50's and 40's who wear #'s in the 30's. I could be sneaky and just let him run free and throw to him and then say, "He's a receiver because he played TE". It's so many underhanded ways to bend rules in your favor. That's why I had 100 pages of information. It stopped some of those bendable rules!

So yes, things like what you speak of Doug, need to be addressed. But I would also caution to you and everyone else, don't just know the rules when they work in your favor. Know them when they are right or wrong for everyone.

Reg

In the game of football at ANY LEVEL....AN ELGIBLE LINEMAN (# FROM 50 - 79) HAS TO BE DECLARED...EVEN IN LITTLE LEAGUE OR POP WARNER EVERY PLAY HE IS ON THE FIELD FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN BEING A LINEMAN.......COME ON COACH.....

IF A BLOCKER FIGURE HAS AN ELGIBLE # ON HIM THEN IN MY HUMBLE OPINION I DO NOT SEE WHY THE OPPONENT HAS TO BE INFORMED?

:mtcnts:

I agree with you also to a degree

I had told him 2 times in the same series right before that play that he heard .

In the end it is my problem because it effected me very much.

I had just hit a 3rd and 20 my back was behind the secondary and runs stright and true. the score was 10-6 Barry .

You just hate after many hours of work to have the game change on an officals call that I THINK WAS A VERBAL MISCOMMUNICATION ON MIKES PART>
I told Mike later on my headstone you will read "I SAID IT YOU DID NOT HERE IT"

Very frustrating.

It is not even a rule that you have to declare a lineman eligible.
But I am the only one that s knows it.

You are wrong Mozeek

He is not ELGIBLE if he goes down field or touches a ball on a pass play.

But I am not sayiong that has anything to do with the play but it needs to be changed.
I declared him as a receiver

RIGHT FROM THE RULES GREG HAS POSTED
 

FUNNY WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU READ THE RULES......;) ;) ;)



5.4 Passing
5.4.1 Eligible Receivers
5.4.1.1 A forward pass is the forward movement of the ball to an eligible receiver. Eligible receivers are tight ends, wide receivers, running backs and quarterbacks who are either lateral with or downfield from the quarterback at the time the pass is to be executed.
5.4.1.2 Eligible receivers are those who are numbered 1 - 49 and 80 - 89. Those who are numbered 50 - 79 and 90 - 99 are considered ineligible receivers, but may become eligible by notifying the referee and opposing coach and then lining the player up in an eligible position.

LIKE I STATED IF THE FIGURE IS THE QUESTION THEN ADDRESS THE FIGURE ISSUE BUT IT CLEARLY STATES IN THE RULES WHAT NUMBERS ARE ELGIBLE WITHOUT NOTIFYING THE REF AND OPPOSING COACH......

Very Interesting Discussion: You don't Need to Read All...
 

but these are from official rulebooks. The premise of this discussion is really moot because we are dealing with the CBSMF, not the NFL, NCAA, High School, or Pee Wee.

But these are the explanations I got from pretty good sources:

In football, the tackle-eligible play is a forward-pass play in which coaches will attempt to create mismatches against a defense by inserting an offensive tackle (who is not normally allowed more than five yards down field on a forward-pass play), into an offensive formation as an eligible receiver, usually as a tight end or as a fullback. This is done by changing the formation of the offensive line, via positioning two linemen (including the "catching tackle") on one side of the center and four linemen on the other. This is normally only run inside the five-yard line.

Under almost all versions of gridiron football, offensive linemen cannot receive or touch forward passes, nor can they advance downfield in passing situations. To identify which receivers are eligible and which are not, football rules stipulate that ineligible receivers must wear a number between 50 and 79. This, however, can be circumvented in most leagues, most commonly by informing the referee of any player with that number who lines up as an eligible receiver on every play.

NFL Football
For example, by official National Football League rules, players with the numbers 50-79 and 90-99 are ineligible receivers. The quarterback or offensive captain informs the referee that a usually ineligible receiver will be eligible for that play. The referee then announces that the ineligible number "x" is reporting as an eligible receiver. This announcement is made using the referee's microphone so both spectators and opposing team can hear. The eligibility is good for only one play and must be done before every play in which the offense plans on making the player eligible.

The Cincinnati Bengals' Pro Football Hall of Fame offensive tackle, Anthony Muñoz, for instance, caught 7 passes for 18 yards and 4 touchdowns in his prolific 13-year career. Another example is the Chiefs' Mike Vrabel, a linebacker who has recorded 11 receptions for 11 touchdowns in his career.

Buffalo Bills' offensive tackle, Mitch Frerotte made a name for himself in 1992 scoring 3 times in one season, the best single season ever for an offensive lineman.

One of the most famous uses of a tackle eligible play came in The Monday Night Miracle when New York Jets lineman Jumbo Elliott caught a 3 yard touchdown pass to cap a 23 point comeback against the Miami Dolphins.

COLOR="Red"]College Football[/color]

NCAA rules are less permissive than NFL rules and require that the five interior linemen, numbered 50-79, never line up as eligible receivers. See rule 1, section 4. Thus, an offensive tackle can never become a tackle eligible. However, a defensive lineman can play as a tight end if his number is not between 50 and 79 (defensive players have no positional numbering restrictions in the NCAA).

A similar play is allowed from a kicking formation, where the requirement that all five linemen wear 50-79 is waived. During a fake field goal or punt, a team may line up with extra tight ends and receivers making it not immediately obvious to the defense which players are eligible and which are not. (However, this exemption can only be taken when it is obvious that a kick may be attempted, for instance on fourth down, in the closing seconds of a half, or similar situations. It cannot be used on every down at the college level.)

High school football

Tackle-eligibles are effectively illegal at the high school level; the rules of that level do not even allow declaration. The scrimmage kick formation was once exempt from all numbering requirements, but after the A-11 offense employed the formation as a base offense, the rules were modified in February 2009. No player wearing between 50 or 79 is eligible to receive a pass, and all ineligible receivers (except a long snapper) must wear between 50 and 79 in all cases.

What I said was that in High school and College you dont have to declare a linemen as eligible .His number declares him as not eligible if you throw to him or he goes down field. Every one does declare them if there is a possiblity that you are throwing a pass but it is not in the rules that way.

It is in our rule book this way because the rules were taken from the shootout rules ( NFL rules where you have to declare all linemen as eligible)

BUt once again not in the real College rule set.

Here is the rule you stated Reggie

SECTION 4. Players and Playing Equipment
Recommended Numbering
ARTICLE 1. It is strongly recommended that offensive players be numbered
according to the following diagram that shows one of many offensive
formations (Rule 1-4-2-b):
80-99
O
End
80-99
O
End
70-79
O
Tackle
70-79
O
Tackle
60-69
O
Guard
60-69
O
Guard
50-59
O
Snapper
O
Quarterback
Backs 1-49
O
Fullback
O
Halfback
O
Halfback
Players’ Numbering
ARTICLE 2. a. All players shall be numbered 1 through 99. Any number
preceded by zero (“0’’) is illegal [S23].
b. On a scrimmage down, at least five offensive players on the scrimmage
line shall be numbered 50 through 79 (Exception: During a scrimmage
kick formation, a player, who by his initial position on the line of
scrimmage, is an exception to the 50-79 mandatory numbering, remains
an ineligible receiver during the down until a legal forward pass is
FR-30 RULE 1-4 / THE GAME, FIELD, PLAYERS AND EQUIPMENT
touched by a Team B player or an official. He must be positioned
on the line of scrimmage and between the end players on the line of
scrimmage. The ineligible receivers (interior linemen) are identified
when the snapper assumes his position and touches or simulates (hand[s]
at or below his knees) touching the ball. A player remains an ineligible
receiver and is an exception to the 50-79 mandatory numbering until the
down is over, a timeout is charged to a team or the referee, or a period
ends.) (A.R. 1-4-2-I, IV and V) [S19].
c. No two players of the same team shall

You know Doug, sometimes...
 

you're just gonna have to know when to let some things go.

Here's the bottom line I think on this. Simply pat the ref on the shoulder and tell him, this man is eligible. Inform the other team in accordance as well. That alleviates all the ill-will/heart-feelings that can come from much ado about nothing!

The game is played. A miscommunication has occurred but at the end of the day, it is the coaches responsibility to make the official aware of everything. The official has his hands full when he is trying to operate clocks, handle stats, and try to bring TV coverage to people across the country.

You played well. Barry played well. Controversial calls happen! Judgment calls happen. But you got to appreciate guys willing to drive 4-5 hours to play and officiate and try to keep that camaraderie rolling along. I know any of us would do it for each other. So let's congrats those OU Sooners for beating the #3 team in the country and move on.

Who do you have to play next?

Reg

I believe that I have let it go.

I didnt start this thread and said that there was a miscommunication plus added that Mike was very busy and just didnt here me .

In reguards to the rules I have said only that you should not ( IN THE future next year) have to even say that he is a eligible reciever and if you throw to him and hit him it will be a foul.

If you want to throw to him then call him eligilble.

This is only my take.

I told Barry during the game many times good play and that he did a good job after the game.

At the time it was very frustrating.

I guess there is a whole part of this that some of us are missing?


mgngcrz mgngcrz mgngcrz

My Thoughts?
 

Losses have a profound way of making you understand things about your team, and yourself. The question is what should you do with YOUR TEAM to ensure it doesn't happen. Now matter what communication is two way. What if Mike, and I am not defending him, said you never said anything? Sender + receiver+ acknowledgement from receiver=two way communication. If that did not happen then share the blame, correct your team, then move on.

Regarding the rules? If a man spent countless years to cover every nuance of a ruleset through various corrections of controversial or techinical discrepancies in the past, then it should take an equal amount of time to streamline them.

Just my thouhgts.

Rule Books
 

I have to agree with Reggie's first post that started this thread. You have to be careful when streamling rules. As the chairman of the MFCA rules committee, I make it a point to read and study all available rule sets for playing the game. Some are very good and some leave way too much open which some coaches will use to their advantage. (I am quilty of that myself).

When writing rules you try to cover every situation, but inevitably something will get missed or left out.

Most people who play the game are familiar with the rules of football but it takes more explananiton to describe all the differnet ways that people have come up with to play electric football.

Many rule sets include statements such as the following:


RULE #1: Just because the rules do not say you can not do it, that does not mean you can do it. It is humanly impossible to have every possible scenario covered in text. If the rules do not say you can specifically do it then you can not do it unless you get prior and specific permission to do so before trying to implement it on the playing field. Anything not covered in the rules will be handled by the officials within the spirit of the rules.

or some similar disclaimer statement.

Again there's no way to cover every situation but you also have to know the rules you are playing under. I have seen too many coaches come to play a game and haven't even read the rules.

In my opinion this is just another argument for the need for a universal or one rule set.

Kenny
I dont know if I understand what your intent is fully but I said in the third like of what you copyed

In the end it is my problem because it effected me very much.

I have to live with it and make out of it what I can.

Me and Mike talked to 4:00Am Sun. night .
It was good for me to talk with him about the situation we are good and my take was I saifd it : He did not here me -

It all falls on me in the long run . End of story

The Shootout Rules are a Universal Ruleset...
 

for Shootout gameplay.

The difference is very minute in that it needs to be further enhanced for pro play and college play. That is being done before your very eyes by the discussions shown. For instance, we now know there is a difference in the "Tackle Eligible scenario between high school, college, and pro."

Just by your experience, it better serves the good of the game. I have lost some games in the past as the "experimental guinea pig" that came up on the short end of the stick of a call that I felt was unjustified! It happens to all of us.

But the rules are universal (that we play under) because I know I use these rules for the BAM, when I go to LA, in the DFW, or in the CBSMF or more importantly, in my solitaire league. So for me, these are my universal rules.

In other styles of play, they've got their universal ruleset too. Been in the game WAY TOO LONG to know what you are speaking of will never happen. So I play with what has been best entertaining for me over the course of time.

Reg

Here is my full intent.
 

Effective communication was probably the cause of the problem, it happens.

Streamlining rules is a long, delicate process. You first have to understand why the rule was put in place, what circumstances precipitated the need for the rule, then determine what language will satisfy that criteria with less wording. It takes a great deal of time and research. Plain and Simple.

We have policies and procedures where I work. The policies outline the requirements and are based upon, in my line of work, over 100 years of situations and circumstances.

Procedures basically detail how the objectives are to be met. These are basically the "how to". They are revised yearly based upon changes in the policy.

Sometimes a situation may come up during the year whereby the procedure needs to be clarified before the yearly revision. So, a memorandum is added temporarily until they can be incorporated when the procedure is revised.

Notice I didn't take anything away? It is because rules, and I have said this before, are built upon the same principles. There is a reason for them. If that reason is not understood then you go back in years when they are removed.

There is a difference in streamlining, ie, using more effective terminology, and change, ie, removing items catergorically. We need to clarify whether things were streamlined, or simply removed.

In looking back I didn't know this was about a game. I thought it was just a rules discussion. I miscommunicated, I should read more carefully. It happens. Sorry.

Hey Ken, there's...
 

nothing wrong with Doug's team. They looked very good! It just comes down to someone has to lose and someone has to win. On that day, the Oklahoma Sooners were the better team.

I hope no one thinks they are not suppose to lose! I would definitely say if I felt that I am not suppose to lose, I probably should not be playing with anyone else. Half of winning is losing!

Doug, I am not saying that about you but I just know we (as a whole) read our own "press clippings" and think this is "life or death" to have a questionable call go against us. It's like our very existence depends on that call.

It's great that we've got this testosterone thing working and the "wolfin'" but we've got to also understand that the other team put in work too. I am guilty of that.

The rulebook is not the problem. Just put in your work. Don't walk up in a game thinking that other coach is just gonna lay down and let you win. And in the name of fairplay, just acknowledge a guy beat you on that given day.

Hey Doug, I thought we were gonna see Rookie 2.0 Version this year???:rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl:

You told me you would not be Rookie 1.0 Version from 2009? Knowing you the way I do, I know you could not hold up for an entire 2010!!!!:rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl:

I am praying I can hold it together for Reg Version 17.0!!!! I've been swearing to be a better person and coach for so long and some knucklehead like an RJ always bring out the worst in me! If I falter from Reg 17.0, you've got every right to remind me!!!:rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: ;) ;) ;)

????????????????????????
 

I wouldn't know Reg. You stop cracking on Doug at my expense.

Seriously Reginald,

What's up man! thmbsp$

That camera is off the chain dude. thmbsp$

I don't know if "streamlined" is the right word, but I know that rules can be simplified.

the first thing you need to determine is do you want a game just like reality or a game that is just a game. I could be wrong but it seems like Shootout rules with all of their detail is designed to mirror real football. And that's fine, but with the detail it creates its own set of chaos that I do think could be avoided. Now I could be wrong, but I swear there are at least three different sets of timing (20 sec., 10 sec. and 5 sec.) for angling players once a catch is made, or a Qb scrambles or the like, why not just make it 10 seconds for everything?

If we are officiating a game, often the only ref., time keeper and statistician, could be simplified to help us out. Penalties the same way. One could still have the intrique of the box with a much simpler set of penalties and calls.
But as long as we are trying to mirror the real game, we will continue to be bogged down with long, detailed set of rules and countless un-written rules that go along with it.


I like the basic Shoot-out rule set, and I think a form of it should be the Standard rules of the hobby (and the hobby needs a standard set of rules), but I do believe that once we underdand and accept that we are not playing real football, they can be simplified and more workable.

Just my opinion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont know how many times I have said that Barry played good .

Dont want to take anything away from him and I didnt bring this to the forum.

I thought you knew me better than to thinK that I thought that anyone would lie down for me.
I am a pesimest Sp.

You have two points besides the one on your head and that is there was undue pressure aplyed by myself. I was scared to lose a platic football game.
WOW!! Never thought it .

Also that was not version 2.0 it was the X rated version and just proves one thing to me .
I am who I am no matter how hard I want to be someone else so no more new versions just sorry old me. I am who I thought I was!!

While you are on here and we are talkin about rules tell me this.

If coach A on defence see Coach B on offence has placed his non moble QB 17 yards behind the line of scrimmage and Coach B had said Pass.
Then Coach A says he is sacked what should happen?


What if Coach B on offence knocks his RB over while placing his non moble QB in play . So what should happen to said RB this is after all autibles
A. have to lie on the field
B. RB Picked up and placed back where he was
C. other??




From Reggie below

The rulebook is not the problem. Just put in your work. Don't walk up in a game thinking that other coach is just gonna lay down and let you win.

Never have and never will

And in the name of fairplay, just acknowledge a guy beat you on that given day.

Again he won but I really think the calls went against me but I understand that happens sometimes
I am a bad loser.
When I coached people and other Coaches thought I was a @ss hole


Hey Doug, I thought we were gonna see Rookie 2.0 Version this year???

see above

You told me you would not be Rookie 1.0 Version from 2009? Knowing you the way I do, I know you could not hold up for an entire 2010!!!!

Three games!! and I was out

I am praying I can hold it together for Reg Version 17.0!!!! I've been swearing to be a better person and coach for so long and some knucklehead like an RJ always bring out the worst in me! If I falter from Reg 17.0, you've got every right to remind me!!!

Good luck

Doug, you're funny!!!
 

It's tough to teach an "Old Fart" new tricks! Doug, you do you. Continue to be Rookie 1.0. It's difficult to be something that you know you're not!

Just go out and enjoy the game and have fun.

Reg

I agree with you 100% on both rulings.


I am a little different on one aspect.

I was very close to walking away but not in my nature.

I just needed about 1 hour to cool off.


And Joe yes I did but they got a shark not a catfish


:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: