MFCA members
 

This is from another coach. His message is locked so I can't respond directly. Sorry for the confusion.

"I dont know what I did to upset this individual or individuals. Well they took it too far this time!!! I just got off the phone with Trademark Management after receiving a certified letter about my website. I was told that a member of the MFCA had sent an email to them only complaining about me and my site that I am using NFL and NCAA teams without permission and that they are reporting me all in the best interest of MFCA and that people like me need to be stopped"

I don't know how others feel but this crap makes me sick. It makes me want to puke knowing we have animals like this in our ranks.


Cowards. :mad:

MAN
 

MAN steve thats just too cold your to good of a guy for crap like that hapening to you...makes me sick..

Wolverine
 

The original thread was posted by Cowboymike. I moved it to the Free For All section and closed it. Just to keep it from getting out of hand. I have talked to CowboyMike personally and we as the Board of Directors will do what is necessary to protect the interest of the MFCA. I appreciate the responses but please let us handle it.

Thanks,
Chris LeMay

WHY ???????
 

WHY ??????????????????


Must 1 member go outside of us to complain to an outside source.

What kind of person is this ?


If this is true of this person, SERIOUS ACTIONS MUST BE TAKEN


A. S. A. P

mantaraydre

sorry
 

sorry i miss understood the thread I thought someone did this to steve M sorry again my bad

Thats sad
 

Its sad to see. The whole Trademark thing is out of control take it from me.
But to turn someone in is wrong. Nobody and I mean NOBODY! can make a serious living off of this stuff, and if you think you can you are only fooling yourself.
Just because YOU get caught does not mean that you should turn the hammer on others.
I think we all can figure out who was turned in and its too bad. If this is what is going to happen then anyone who tries to sell anything related to NFL or NCAA should not be allowed to advertise here on this web page.

Hopefully...
 

...we won't have to worry about Trademark Management for very much longer--been down that road, and they don't play.

.
 

So who is it that turned him in? PM me to keep this from turning into a war. I just want to know so I know who not to socialize with or buy ANYTHING from. I have an idea, just want to make sure I'm right.

Dropping A Dime.......
 

I'm not suprised that someone "stooped" that low.Not
suprised one bit.There's always that 10% ( give or take a % )
that have to try and ruin it for everyone.It's sad that they are
so miserable /mean,that they have to resort to something like this.
What do they think they have to gain by "dropping-a-dime"
on someone ?It's just a sad state of affairs...... I wouldn't mind
knowing who it is either.I'd just as soon not deal with this type
of person.But I know you won't say ( in public anyway) And I
understand the legal ramifacations. Too much.......

SEMPER FI,
Chris Stacey

thats disgusting,that someone would stoop that low,their only hurting themselves and our great site,what a shamemgngcrz

I will not touch this long...
 

but I do know how he feels. I have experienced it for SO many years. I once had a guy tell me that a decal maker just laughed and smiled when he heard I was being sought by the Trademark Management. He asked him if he told. The guy did not reply. So this does go on.

You probably will never find out who that person is but that person will continue to do those types of things when they feel you are taking from their business. One thing I always swore in this game was to never implicate others to the NFL or NCAA. I was fortunate to have an NCAA license for some time. I have entertained thoughts of getting an NFL license. It is a very powerful brand to be associated with.

But the thing is, we've all used the brand in one way or another. So many guys have set up boutique operations using NFL and NCAA logos. This has been all for the better of the hobby as a whole. CowboyMike, there really is no telling who this person could be.

Just be careful and watch your association. Everybody on here don't have your best interest at heart. Those are the real cold hard facts. I wish you well and continue doing the things that you do.

Reg

Shocking, absolutely shocking...
 

...that some of you are amazed this could happen. There is a darkside to the "group hug" this hobby tries to represent, I have seen, it and lived it first hand and I am not just talking about the recent troubles in Los Angeles, the sickness to which I refer is nationwide.

Many of you are living amongst it right now and don't even know it, because you may think you know who you associate with on these forums, but you really don't know them and have not been exposed to the things you should see or hear from people.

Everyone knows I love the hobby, most think I am an arsehole, that I am fast to accuse and quick to throw under the bus and I am. Guys like me and a lot of others are easy to peg, be they good or bad, but many people on here are just fronting and are not what or how they appear.

I am sure each of you know this already though in some way, shape or form.


This is not a slam on the MFCA, BOD, etc...,etc...just my observations of the hobby in general the last few years.

It's a hobby to most, but to a lot it is the be all end all and defines their existence.

Nonsense!
 

I have been afraid of getting in trouble myself, and I personally have been very carefull to try not to break rules. BUT!!!! I would never expect someone from our own ranks to turn people in. That is just B.S.

I noticed that several websites were gone, or changed drastically, and I had wondered what happend with Beenutt a few months ago.

I know that trademark infringement is a big deal, and I understand why it is set up the way it is. I have some side projects that I don't want people to copy or steal. However, our quaint little hobby can't possibly be threatening the profits of the NFL, and the decals and teams are more of a service than a product. It is just bullying.

As for sites getting caught, I can see the "legal eagles" for the NFL shutting down sites that they come across. But not people in the hobby policing for them. Someone will be in bad karma.

The unfortunate truth of the matter is there are haters in this hobby who act out of jealousy, revenge or simply just enjoy the thrill of taking someone down in a cowardly fashion, it's a fact plain and simple.

They are a small minority, but they do damage and build cliques to some extent.

well, i say make a list of everyone who has NOT burned anyone. and if someone needs a certain item or team, they can handle it privately with any "safe" individuals on this site.


i too would like to know who it was, but please, dont send me an answer if there arent facts. cant stand gossip

I am of the opinion that ones work should speak for itself. I think that people should use some discretion when when advertising goods on their personal websites that utilize trademarks and copyrights owned by others. There are many ways to go about this and still showcase your work and your talented abilities...

However...

Turning others in is ridiculous, ESPECIALLY in the humble little hobby that we occupy. Make the big boys do their own research, they pay people a lot of money to do such things. Make them earn it. Don't do their work for them.


:mtcnts:

Sad ............
 

It's sad that someone would resort to this. They probaly don't realize that they are hurting the hobby , not just one guy. As far as screening people you deal with , I must say that I've done business with 7 or 8 guys on here and have had nothing short of great experiences ! My long term goal is to buy alil something from everybody that sells products , if possible.

The person(s) that did this should think about all the hurt they have caused. I wish them well , whoever they (he) may be.

Could this be possible???????
 

Could it be possible that someone from the Trademark umbrella has signed on to this site as a member, just to keep track of whats going on? Undercover Trademark operative if you will. He signs on to many different sites and joins groups, just catch small guys like us just trying to have a little fun outside of lifes expectations and circumstances. I mean, its not like we run background checks on guys when they sign up.

I dunno, could this be? :fghttt: :fghttt: :fghttt: :dohdh: :dohdh: :rnt; :rnt; :rnt; :rnt; :rnt;

Cause for real, i hope its more this than having haters among us.:rllngs: :rllngs:

Hoop ...........
 

Great point ! I get email offers all the time to browse internet looking for products and services. I didn't think about that until now !

Be realistic, .................and not rationalize
 

I can't believe what many of you are crying about. Some of us got caught with our hand in the cookie jar...............yes,.....I GOT CAUGHT TOO! I had a few conversations with the NFL about eight years ago. Their lawyer was pretty cool with me. She told me my web site violates their trademarks. She told me what to do,............. and IF I complied, ..............I would not have to worry about anything else..............guess what, ......I complied!!!

I got sooo many calls about who did it, who turned me in, .................and every time I told the caller, "I understand what they are doing, if I had a license or brand to protect, I would probably do the same." The callers could draw their own conclusion.

Many of us rationalize that it is ok to violate someone's property, ........

I see so much of "Hey, they make tons of money, why mess with me?" and "I'm/We are not hurting anyone/anything" ..........it all wreaks of "a sense of entitlement" ............... we ARE NOT ENTITLED!

I understand doing what we do, but for Christ's Sake, ..........stop crying when you get caught. :rnt; They are protecting their property/investment!

It's like the DB who blatantly interferes with the receiver, and acts like he did nothing wrong, when called on it :rnt; ......................and the other type, after getting called............. just smiles and admits his wrong doing. ;)


Just man up, and change your way of doing business, or continued to get hassled and keep crying " poor pitiful me", .........hey, ..the definition of insanity is do the same thing again and again, and expecting a different outcome! ...................mgngcrz

The continued infringement from us (meaning the hobby), only gives the hobby a continuous black eye.

I agree
 

You are right !

stop using common sense to make your argument .:D

Im not crying about anything. The fact that trademark contacted me is not what I'm upset about. I understand their point. I am upset with the fact that this individual singled me out and went as far as to email them about only me. Thats what I'm upset about. I have complide already and God willing it is settled now. Thanks
CowboyMike

Ive read this entire thread
 

And i understand what coach RIP stated, but i think i feel like many of the other members here feel, and that is that its ashame someone from within our ranks would turn another member in. If Cowboy Mike was caught in any other way, thats one thing, but to be snitched on by another member is not a good feeling. IMO.:mad:

Exactly.

It's obvious....
 

... to me this happened for Business purposes................ and so what is the difference between that,.......... and someone else who comes out with a like/same product and lowers the price to get/steal business from an established business??

The result is the same for the business, ........................Business/money is taken from one and funneled to another.

Someone can't compete on the same terms so he must resort to other means to get business.....sometimes even after there is an agreed upon price................whether it's turning someone in or undercutting prices.

It does not surprise me at all that someone within the ranks did this.

I have seen this with figures, hand painted teams, big boards, numbers, decals etc.

To many of you it's okay to go to a new guy with a lower price because you THINK you are getting a better deal, YOU are only thinking of yourself, and that is okay, but call it what it is.............then you cry when you don't get your stuff! .....................or better yet, the pain job sucks, or the stuff is junk!

I have been screwed more times in this hobby than that Porn Queen Jenna Jameson, ..........you fans of hers forgive me if I didn't spell her name correctly.. ;) ....

To me it's all the same...........the old song from the OJ's " The BackStabbers" there are quite a few in this hobby.

"Titanic"
 

We're all rowing the same boat, for anyone here to use the Logo Cops, to settle a dispute or for any other reason, is crazy. Being approached is one thing, but to be pointed out is something entirely different, everybody here is guilty of the same thing I find it amazing that while there reporting u they pull out there custom NFL board with there custom NFL team to practice. I bet u, after they looked at his site, they looked at others that also came up when searched. So if u feel the need to snitch to the Logo Cops, call em on yourself and quit tryin to sink the ship! peace:mad:

Another example of more stupid assenine laws that protect the rich and famous. As if they don't make enough money. I remember the first time I got a set of Strat-O-Matic cards where the team names were changed because of this stupidity. The NY Bombers, St Louis Red Birds, etc.. As if using a team name and their players is going to jeopardize the sport and salaries. Where does one draw the line on this nonsense? What's next...hauling off some 10 year old kid because he's playing whiffle ball in the back yard wearing a Yankee T-shirt he made with "Rodriguez 13" on it?

Before this gets out of hand, please be aware of what image you are presenting to the general public. If there is a conflict between individuals, those parties involved need to keep it between themselves and not in view of the public forum. Thank you for your cooperation.

THE PRICE WE PAY
 

George (Buzzball) has been in business long enough to know how the game is played,you can consider him an expert on the subject and I respect his opinion a great deal.What he has said here (although tough to take) is true and the way of the business world,you can't blame people for trying to protect what is theirs,I accept all that.What I cannot accept is the fact that someone takes it upon themselves to become the copyright police on our site and blow someone in.....that is out of bounds and a personal foul to all members of the MFCA.
Who ever is doing this has no business being a member of this organization and does not value our friendship. I don't know who you are but please take you mean spirited attitude else where...this site is for people who love the hobby and the all the great guys in it, get a life!.
Larue

I agree
 

Well said !

If someone is...
 

...ratting us out, then the karma will be sent their way at some point. Life is just like that.

I Woke up thinking
 

about this. I think this problem will continue to come up, so we need to have a way of handling it. Like was said above, it is all in how things are presented.

What I was wondering is: did anyone ever let the new vendor(s) know what the rules are, or how to set up thier sites to avoid problems?

I try to always confont a person I have a problem with before ever taking it to someone else. Who ever contacted the NFL should have contacted the vendor first and let them know what they were doing was going to cause a problem, and especially if they were truly doing so to protect the MFCA.

I think in the future we need to let vendors know these things, and help them avoid the conflict.

I want to eventually build a site just to show my work, but I don't know what is allowed and what isn't. Can I show fully painted teams with logos if I am not selling them? Can I sell painted teams as long as I don't sell "NFL" teams, or do I have to loose any evidence of logos as soon as I sell something. I think it would be good for all of us to know how the rules actually work.

We all need to work togther on these things, even though some people are in business competition. I know all's fair in love, war , and business, but we should still try to deal with things fairly within our ranks.

Best wishes to all on this,
Michael

Here is what I can tell you in as short an answer as I can put together.
Displaying items online that include any form of trademarked or copyrighted logo as a collection or as your own property generally does not create a problem, however, they can still insist that the logos be blurred out or removed. The moment you turn it into a business venture, offer the said items for sale or attempt to make a profit using others trademarked artwork you are breaking the law and are subject to penalties.

This is why we have been so adamant about TRADING only in the Trading forum. The trading forum is not completely safe either, even though it can only be viewed by MFCA Members. The BOD is looking at our sponsorship program and may need to revise who can be involved in it or if we will continue it at all as vendors such as Cowboy Mike and Rollerboards do put themselves at risk.

One word of advise is to never imply or outwardly say that an item is for sale or has been sold.

Backstabbers and legalities!
 

I don't know why this thread was retrieved thus continuing a raging debate with no solution.

Sure we should have someone post some information for vendors for copyright protections like people do sculpting, tweaking, and the like. You established vendors need to work at that end. I for one am sick of hearing how people have to endure, or why me, or who's that dirty dog, or even posting backstabber songs. Why don't some of you older vendors, who can't even speak to one another, get together so that the new genration of vendors don't get caught up in this stupidity?

If you place a post on this forum about being called by the NFL, NCAA, or even the friggin' AFL then you should state the nature of the call, what was required for compliance, what action you took, and the results. Now, In Rip's case I remember it happening and the actions he took. In one word, "Exemplary". Now other vendors have been called dozens of times and continue to try to erase the line drawn in the sand. Then, they are on this forum complaining about the fact that they are showing, advertising, then selling the brand without a license. To date, I know of no one being sued, just told to cease, desist, or slightly alter your product.

My friend Steve went to MSU. His stadium, teams, bands, cheerleaders, are all homage to his favorite team, his college days, yet they are his and his alone. Now if Steve starts to sell these things on Ebay then he has violated the NCAA copyright technically. Some hater sees the item on Ebay, and is mad at Steve for something that happened 15 years ago like some of these vendors, then they have a right to call because of the violation.
In other words, like RIP said, if you should not be doing it, then don't complain when you are caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

Not that anyone has been the example of integrity with this, but you are giving the haters the dime to drop yourselves.

The worst part is now the calls are being made by those who have done so much harm to their credibility that they can't show their faces without being the subject of an inquisition from the membership. They may be members, but they have been ostracized by the membership so they seek to destroy the MFCA altogether. Take the emotion out of your thoughts and ask yourself why someone would have to make sure it is known that a member of the MFCA made this complaint? If that individual were protecting the interest of the MFCA then why point the licensing people to our site. Stop pointing fingers and logically approach this and you will clearly see whomever the caller they don't like the MFCA or it's members. Conquer and divide. As an example what has Beenutt ever done to anyone?, or CowboyMike? Get my pont!

As a youngster in our league always says, "ONE"!

Lastly, go with established vendors. If it sounds too good to be true then it is.


Just my thoughts.

ken right on point.
 

I honestly think anyone who knows of our community and is an outsider to membership, have free range to do anything negative. They could have a third party doing the calling and website directing so the trail never leads to them. Feels strange not seeing beenuts website. There are two parts to this.

I must agree with the NFL NOT WANTING UNLICENSED parties flaunting their brand.THIS IS BUSINESS FOR THEM. It's not just us, It's everyone who flaunts there brand. same principal as people downloading songs and ticking off the artist. It may be hard for you guys to hear but we are using something that is not ours, plain and simple. JZ, hip hop mogul has 40/40 clubs in various cities. 40/40 is the name he came up with. Big poppy of the boston redsox decides to open a club in the dominican replublic and name it FORTY/FORTY. His argument is he spelled out the word. Jz is ticked off and is suing him over the name. I think big poppy had to shut it down. WHY WOULD HE NAME A CLUB THE SAME NAME AS JZ'S. dOES HE THINK JZ IS STUPID. NOW LOOK.

We must understand this happens everyday in all business. We dont see it because we are just trying to have fun with our favorite teams. Image licensing is a billion dollar business. They seek business, we seek fun.
They could look at us as minor advertisment but they wont. Think of yourself making a hit record and came across a site where you saw thousands of free downloads of your song. would you make them stop, or would you let them continue on ?

NOW !!!!!!!!! We would never have to worry about a thing IF WE ALL DESIGNED OUR OWN TEAMS AND FIELDS AND MARKETED THE MFCA THAT WAY. Thats the first thing i did when i came back. I first decided what image of a team i wanted to portray. I thought of the mantarays. I sent mike beal designs on what i wanted my logos to look like and we worked from there.
NEXT, i called reg rutledge, i sent him designs on how i wanted a mantaray field to look like. FIELD IS ON HIS FF.NET WEBSITE. I now have four different mantaray teams and looking to make ten. I take pride in those teams the most because it is something i designed. Im currently working on a league with unique teams only. The approach is similar to ARENA, USFL,CFL, SEMI PRO. make your own unique league. The arena teams have some sweet logos.
No one has to be held hostage to nfl and college teams. Wolf can make designs for logos 1 2 3 and have them shrunk down for the decal makers.

You can play with your NFL teams privately, and market your unique team publicly. NO HASSLE WHAT SO EVER.

part 2, Whom ever has that much energy to go out of there way to tell the nfl about what someone is doing probably has nothing else in his life. If he did that, what else has he done over the years. loyalty runs deep in my land. once you cross the picket line, YOUR NEVER LOOKED UPON THE SAME.
Thats for all the other sneaky little stuff that goes on here and elsewhere.
I do have a list, i may smile in your direction, BUT YOUR ON THAT WATCH LIST BIG TIME. its a shame it is growing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

make some teams
MANTARAYDRE

Really a separate issue.....
 

.... from the character of our MFCA members, but I think we are taking the rights of the NFL and the NCAA a little too far. I never would have imagined we had so many trademark attorneys in the MFCA. Who is mass producing licensed products in the hobby anyway?

But Andre has a point, perhaps we could start developing our own teams, logos and marks and trademark some of our own stuff.... That way we eliminate the NFL and the NCAA from the picture and hopefully the snitches. As stated, some coaches have already done this; like Andre's team or the Black College Allstars out West.

Next season I may be "Sparty" or something like that with our own look separate from the University.

This separation could also pave the way for more commercial endeavors for our leagues that may help us to keep the hobby alive....

Not arguing, but I am curious about the statement regarding taking the rights of the NFL and the NCAA too far. Can you clarify what that means? My understanding is that the NFL,the NCAA and the college teams pretty much have 100% say of what they find acceptable and will allow. If they come on this site and find logos in use whether for sale or not, they could ask us to remove them. If we do, all is fine, if we don't they can take legal action to whatever level they choose to. This is why it is so important that we keep our forum clean, basically free of controversy and present ourselves in the best of lights. Honestly, the less the MFCA name is brought up in their offices, the better. That is what truly worries me about someone taking it upon themselves to report another person on our site to the "powers" in the name of the MFCA. If we become a nuisance to them, they will not blink an eye or shed one tear in telling us to shut down. We are a flyspeck in the big picture, but fly specks that land on their $100 T-Bone Steak dinner start to become an issue and get sent back to the kitchen.

STEVE JUST SWITCH IT A LITTLE.
 

STEVE,

wHAT TOWN/CITY/NEIGHBORHOOD in michigan do you live. Just change it a little. If you cant think of a logo just put numbers or a fancy s on the helmets. call them the " SPARTMEN" INSTEAD OF SPARTANS.

FLYNT SPARTMEN

GRAND RAPIDS SPARTMEN

USE THE SAME COLORS BUT MAYBE ADD BLACK PANTS OR SO.

OFCOURSE NEW FIELD COVER. YOUR SET UP IS NICE WITH THE TV NAND EVERYTHING. This is just to call them your own and avoid future hassles.
when you play youmcan advertise as the spartmen. But play with you know who unless it is on tv. I honestly think it is going to tick the nfl off if they ever saw a game streamed over the internet. It will just make them ask another question.
national high volts make there own teams. reveena al makes his own teams. Some coaches wanted to start a league with self made teams in the past.
I think it is a smart thing to do at least as a back up plan. i think we should have a back up just in case we are ever asked to shut down. I hope that day never comes.
spar-trek !!!!!!!!

mantaraydre

Wolf, I am by no means a Patent-Trademark attorney. I will leave that to the experts on this forum. But I have has some experience on a case with copyright/trademark issues and fair use doctrines. In general, a trademark is a protection afforded by act of congress to protect the commercial intrests of the holder to control the use of such mark for the purpose of trade, or to induce the sale of goods and services; and also to protect the consfusion mistake and attempts to decieve.

However,the law also protects non-economic use, free speech and the use of copywritten/trademarked material for parody, education to promote social and poloitcal ideas.