I Hate the Box but I Can't Live...
 

without it!

How many times have you seen a team drive the ball down the field on about 10 plays 70 yards and the cornerback slips to let the receiver streak by. Now,the coverage had the safety not playing in the nickel or dime package so he had a lot of ground to cover for just one safety.

The pass is thrown. The reaction occurs -30,20,10, Touchdown!

The coach says "Shake the Box". The dice come up 6-6, 1, and 5. Clipping, flagrant, 15 yards, and loss of down (or something to that effect)! Three CRUCIAL penalties and a fumble took away 3 possible scores! Not only that, it gave the other team new life.

Call it "opportunistic". Wow, what excitement does this rattlesnake cause us! We've been shak'en em up for 17 years here and I can only remember once in the 17 years that somebody forgot to bring the Box! It's sacrilege! Games become boring when an action does not take place.

The players rest on every shake, anticipating something good or bad for your team. You try to play through it but it can be a gamechanger.

Sometimes, I do hate the box but honestly, I can not play without it. It brings such fun and a touch of chance. It helps you prepare for the unknown and teaches you how to weather the storm.

It got me tonite but it also got Pep, the FSU coach. I think in the course of 3 hours, it has a way of evening out for the most part. I can still hate that box though.

Reg

I actually was tuned in for a short while when you had the TD called back. The box sure makes it hard to take the game too seriously when the luck of the box continues to remind you that its just a game. It looked like you guys had a great game and a fun time. The stadium made for a nice looking broadcast.

There is no doubt the box can decide a game, just as critical calls do in real football. Have you ever considered allowing the coach to "challenge" the box? Say one time per half?

Michigan Joe, I really love the Box
 

I really have no problem with "The Box". Yeah, we have challenges, two per half. They can be used on certain situations, usually an argued pass play or something to that effect.

I love what the Box brings us. It adds that element that is not always cut and dry. There is luck in football so this acts as it. It's rare during a game that 4 crucial infractions would occur on a team but the truth of the matter, my team was "undisicipline" to have made those infractions. I will not look at it as if this just disgust me.

Actually, just knowing how the Box work, I know it is an equal-opportunity killer and Pep had a few plays where it came back to bite him in the butt too.

I enjoy playing guys like Pep because although intense, he plays with great sportsmanship. There were some things that both Pep and I let go because we know, it's just a game and not life or death.

I am definitely happy you were able to hear the laughter. That's one of the first times I have laughed a lot in the last half year. It was good to play again and go through the emotion highs and lows of shake'en the box.

Thanks for asking Michigan Joe.

Reg

The Box
 

I'm going to preface my comments with some background as to not have them taken out of context:

1) I am about to play in a league for the first time that uses the box. I'm excited about it.

2) I'm always in favor of innovation and I applaud the creator of the box for bringing some of these events and excitement into play via the box.

3) I like also that the box gives some guys that have disabilities, etc a method of passing that seems to be statistically valid.

That being said, I really don't like how the box is administered. Most often, it is used to try to "take away" something after a coach has done something well. With it being a coach's discretion shake, that is definitely the intent. Now, true, the box can have adverse affects on the offense as well as the defense, but for the most part the practical uses of the box has evolved into what I stated above.

My thought is that events occur on any play so why isn't the box quickly shaken automatically after every play to see if a random event occurred. Percentages would probably have to be scaled down a bit, but that way there isn't the element of "I'm using this thing to try to negate you" instead of "hey, did something random (penalty, injury, fumble, etc) occur on either side."

I think that use would eliminate a lot of the criticism, not of the box but more in how it is being applied.

Again, this isn't "box hating"...it is just asking the question about fitting the box to the spirit of its original intent.

Tom, I will try to answer that and...
 

it is definitely good to see you in a league that will use "The Box". Usually, once a league uses it, they will never go back to any other simulation method. This has been our experience. So thanks for at least trying it.

There are two rules of thumb here. The Box is used at a coaches discretion and it separates Rookies from Veterans.

In most leagues, the Box is shaken on every play. The thought being is that something good does not happen for both teams on every play. For instance, if a team gains a positive 3 yards, is that good for the defense or is that good for the offense. I guess it depends more on down and distance. So one team should be telling the official to "Shake it up" depending on the down and distance.

What makes the Shootout style so exciting is it makes you aware of everything around you. It sharpens your skills because no crutches are used to matriculate the field to score the ball. So in doing so, you have to always stay aware of the potential for penalties, injuries, or fumbles. This constant uncertainty keeps you motivated to try to hurry up and score. You know, it's just a matter of time for a veteran coach to get a call against you. With the simulation of the box, we look at it as "Hoping the players can strip the ball or seeing a clip or holding to nullify a drive." Rookies forget these things. As they sharpen their skills in this method, they begin to see the importance of shaking up the box. It's a 50-50 proposition at that point. But until then, the rookies chances are less. Once the rookies understand its use, they "have arrived in the Shootout ways". With you having anywhere from 80-100 opportunities to shake the box, even a rookie will have his chances. The laws of averages gives even the most inept players chances (and that's what we want).

The funny thing is Tom, I know I can't convince you about what's fair. You will have to experience it to see for yourself. If you guys are able to get off a great amount of plays, it will truly give you chances. And yes, if you are playing in a league where it's new to every one, shaking it on every play evens up the playing field. But the reality is, everyone is not even in this game and you should have some players better than others and sometimes, this is distinguished by who knows when to "Shake that thang" or "the Showstopper" because it is not always black or white.

Reg

box ideas...
 

I'm kind of with Tom on this one...I like the idea of the box being an "automatic", a random part of every play and probably administered by the ref. Anything less penalizes a coach about forgeting to use it to try to "take away" the opponents play, which will happen far more to new coaches than to veterans. This is how I would vote on using it for a local league. Then give each coach one challenge per half to be used soley to try to reverse the call of the almighty box! I definately like the concept of the box, and haven't played any games with it before so my viewpoint comes mainly from conceptual theory than with experience.

The Box
 

I'll be the first to admit that my views on the box are like Michigan Joes - strictly based on opinion and not from first hand experience. I really am excited to try it and I like the idea of fumbles, injuries, penalties, etc working their way into MF just like the pros so for that we are 100% in agreement and it is all good.

I'm bringing up my ideas with the caveat that it isn't a sword worth falling on. The positive of the box being in play I believe outweighs any negatives. Reg, I always appreciate your innovations and passion. Most inventions in this country were always done by "monomaniacs on a mission" like yourself. Too many coaches I respect really enjoy the box for it to be seen in anything but an overall very positive light.

As for when a box should be shaken and should shaking the box be a coaching move or an automatic part of each play? I'm an avid golfer and I think of the box as "the rub of the green" - those things you can't control in a round...the ball hitting a sprinkler head, the wind gusting up right as you take your backswing, that bounce into the sand trap instead of going 5 feet away from the cup if it was just two inches more to the right, etc.

I guess I would fall on the position that the current use of the box does seem to fall on the "something bad happened to me so I'm going to shake the box" to try and offset it. It's that piece that still rubs me a bit the wrong way.

Now, if you put some more risk/reward in it - such as "you can shake the box or pivot your men" or something like that...then at least there is a risk/reward coaching decision as opposed to "will I remember or not".

I guess if I were starting a league from scratch, I would institute the box definitely, but I would just have it automatically shaken on every play. Just my $0.02. But, after playing some games in Michigan this fall, I'll report back and if I change my mind I'll be happy to be the first one to admit it. I've been wrong plenty in my life.

Tom, I appreciate...
 

you even trying this. Like many of the people who you may respect in the hobby who now use the Box, they were ones who thought of the Box as "cheezy or hokie" at first. I respect those opinions because when in doubt, people continue to hold on to what they believe is true.

I will admit I am that "monomaniac" that often times stand alone in my belief on what I see as good for the game. Maybe in time, those beliefs can be appreciated because now others get enjoyment from those slings and arrows I endured about the game.

You are right in your analogies to golf "boo-boos". Last night Greg Hardmon called me about 11:00 to discuss his game. You could tell his excitement of playing and how he had to play through "The Box". He told me that the Box went against him about 3-4 times in crucial situations but it made him all the better for it.

In my time, I have lost 2 championships with the shake of the Box. The player was stripped of the ball as he was racing to score to win the game! Bad luck or a great shake by the opponent? I don't know, but I loved every second of the intrigue. At that time, the offense was shaking the box and neither the ref or him was looking at the box. I could have lied and said "nothing" but how would I have felt winning that way?

So the box giveth and sometimes taketh away. But you will have fun and at the end of the day, assess the box in its rightful place as just another element to help enhance the game. I will never play without the box again. It brings that much fun to my games. I wish you could have heard or saw the game that I played the other day against Florida. The Box was hot and the coaches were having the time of our lives. It don't get any better than that!


Reg

THE BOX IS GOOD FOR EF.thmbsp$ ppls$ shkthbx: shkthbx:

I too like the box and the "X-factor" that it incorporates into the game. But I like the idea of it being shaken on EVERY play, no just when you are trying to call a play back. This makes a lot of sense.

I TOO
 

AM WITH TOM ON THIS ONE,I AM VERY EXCITED ABOUT PLAYING WITH THE BOX , IN THE GLEFL, I SAT OUT LAST YEAR , FOR PERSONAL REASONS,AND THE YEAR BEFORE THE BOX WASNT USED. .............................

I don't use 'the box', but I have been using my fumble/penalty dice for over 30 years in my solitaire games. Here's my take on it. I wouldn't play any other way. Yes, there is a love/hate relationship about it. When you throw an interception, but the defense is called for a penalty negating it and giving you a first down instead, you love the dice. When you score a TD, but it gets called back because of holding, you hate it.

Some games it seems like there are nothing but fumbles and penalties, and other games where there is one penalty for the entire game and that's it.

As weird as it sounds, some teams just seem to be more penalty prone than others, just ask the Third Reich. I think they have had more TD's called back due to penalties than any other team.

If I could offer one bit of advice for Reggie, it would be to have the game ref or someone else roll the box during a play, that way if a fumble comes up, you can stop the play right in the middle and say "Fumble!" rather than waiting until after the play is over. Just my :mtcnts: shkthbx: strrngthpt strrngthpt :rulz:

I can't stand it...
 

Real talk.... I don't like the box. But I play because these are rules that my league voted to play with and I really like electric football and my league NOT the box.

You can't tell me that it makes sense that you can shake the box and have a drop pass. When a coach can go 0 for 10 passing finally hit a pass and you can shake the box to get a drop. wait here they come ..... "That's real football?" Newsflash this is not real football!

If that's the case why isn't there a counter meaning every time I miss a pass I should be able to shake the box and get a catch. It can be called a "Pass caught from a deflection" That's bull :mad: See how stupid that sounds? Let me stress Tone here :cool: as this is not me being negative about ANY league or rule set because I just like to play this is just my :mtcnts: in a normal tone. I'm not bashing. Now you can keep the penalties and keep the fumbles but drop pass is not a fair roll of the dice:hmmmmm: btddhrs

:twkr: shkthbx:

Jamel, I'm not that familiar with all that the box includes. I thought it was basically penalties, fumbles and injuries. I agree, having a completed pass ruled incomplete because of the roll of the dice would suck. Of course, so would finally completing a pass and have it called back because of a penalty, but those things do happen in a game, so I would be more wiling to accept that. Man, 0 -10 passing, I think I would be spending a little more time practicing with that TTQB, either that or try getting the other guys to let you use passing sticks. Maybe you could run over your passing hand with the car and claim injury. :dohdh: mgngcrz mtmstnks ;)

THE BOX
 

Everyone knows I don't curse on the chat page. But if you had my experience
with the BOX,you to would say F%#^ THE BOX.$br# $br# $br# $br#



BRONCOMAN

A test of charactor!
 

Just my perspective of when the box works against me I ask myself:

What are you made of?
When life throws a curve at you what do you do?
When things are going great and you hit a bump in the road do you stop/quit?
Is your cup half empty or half full?

In summary, sometimes you are up, sometimes you are down. What is your outlook when you are down? Do you get back up? or, do you curse your fate?
Reminds me of the game of life, so do you want to play?

I know one thing that's good about it. It gives guys a chance to beat me who wouldn't have a chance in hell otherwise. I like that challenge even when I come up short.

I welcome challenges, no questions asked.

That's the box, like it or not?

Play Ball!

Sha!

shkthbx:

Kenny, I hate to agree with you...
 

but I think you are right.

Honestly, that's why I love the Box. I often say, "You can tell a lot about a guy in the 3 hours you sit across from him". How does he handle the highs and lows of the Box, does he tap out when he is losing big, does he finish and learn anything, can he take the Peanut Gallery slams, does he use the Box as his reason of losing or was it just he was not on his skill level that day?

I've got great respect for Jamel but I have seen QBs throw passes to receivers and the receiver try to run before he look the ball in. He drops the ball. I have seen runners fumble the ball in open field.

All I can ask you to do (as I have ask so many people over time) is give it a chance. Hone your skills in the passing, play creation, and defense because turnovers, fumbles, and penalties will happen in this style. Be ready to overcome those things because that is a part of this style of play.

Reg

Hate to ????
 

Predicting I win and rooting against me from afar. Another challenge! thmbsp$

Thanks for the poster board material!

Seriously, I had a miserable game passing so late I decided to just run. As my man is going in the end zone, shake the box, fumble to the defense. Lost the game. It was fitting for the day I had. It was an 0-16 Lions day and the box made sure it stayed that way? Oh well, it is what it is . . .

But it won't help you if I make it to Canton! :nhnh:

Kenny, Use whatever bulletin...
 

board material you want!

You one of the few people on hear who can read between the letters of a line and analyze it in your own way!

I will definitely see you in Canton. Bring the jokes, the shirt and tie, and I will have the microphone.

Anyhow, what in the heck are you doing up at 3:30 in the morning???

Reg

Several Things
 

Youngest and oldest sons aren't feeling well. Medicine for both then noticed my kitchen was dirty. I normally get up a 3:45 for work so I came here and saw you had posted so "I read between the letters of a line and analyzed it my own way". Heck, if I take it at face value I couldn't make it bulletin board material. :fghttt:

No shirt and ties this year my friend, although I can do both at the same time. I might just be that good! :rtfl: ltsplbll ppls$

Check out the Big Ten Spin on the main page!

Sha!

Sha
 

OK, Ken...you're one of my favorite people in the hobby but what the heck does Sha mean? Being a redneck cracker from small-town Wisconsin originally I'm going to harbor a few guesses:

- Short for Michael Jackson Shamoa
- Support for the time when the Shah of Iran wanted to exile in the US
- Tribute to your favorite Cubbie, Shawon "Thunderpup" Dunston
- What one says after the box roll is crummy right before they remember the 15 yard penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct if they finish the word
- What Sha Na Na now has to call themselves because of legal complications over the trademark use of the band name after their lead singer left

Am I close??

Heck No!
 

The term originated back in 1974 when a 10 year old Tony "Tony Paul" Jones meant to say Shazam but instead would utter Sha! After awhile it became commonplace and a staple in the Detroit Electric Football League that Ran until 1999 where the remaining members were absorbed by the Great Lakes League. I consider it the only battle cry related to miniature football! Hopefully, you will hear it in the fall! What a release!

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

How many of those guys...
 

in Detroit have you been hanging around since 74? Tony Jones is still active in the game. I know a lot of you cats in Detroit stayed in the Detroit area a while and probably have been playing together since the 70's. Who are some of those?

Reg

Real Talk
 

This Box/GAME has notta to do with life situations nor is it a reflection of LIFE for ME... :hmmmmm: I'm dealing with Life situations and the box is no compairson to my DAY to DAY nor is the GAME of electric football for ME? Maybe for some but not for ME. If you watch me play electric football you will have no indication of how I handle life situations. A lot of people are push overs in LIFE but when it comes to this game they get nads! Real talk they are scrubs. :cool: We as men have many hats and for some of you this is a compairson/reflection of how you handle your real life situation but for me it's not. Again, just my :mtcnts: I play electric football to relax and fellowship to get away from LIFE and LIFE situations..... There is so much crap that I allow people to get away with in this hobby that they better think twice before they think they can pull this crap for real! On some real stuff....

There are things the game of electric football will bring out such as competative nature, passion for electric football, and morals but how they handle some real situations for ME this game will not show you nodda!

For others who haven't seen me play 0-10 is not me! You play me assuming I will go 0-10 and I will put a hoop score on dat arse!:eeeek:

Actually
 

I actually played in and around some of the same leagues that Jim Davis played in kids in the late 60's early 70's. Back then the whole neighborhood had full leagues. You could have all 24 teams on one city block. My first team was the Giants, guess who I play with now. Of the many I have played with:

Tony Jones has played in the last three years
Erick Thompson out West is a native Detroiter who I will take credit for helping raise and mentor through basketball and EF. He went out to Cali and was handling his business until he had to stop. I'll leave it at that. He still plays.
I met Jimmy in 1989 after the only year I took off playing football. I know for a fact he loves EF more than I do. We have fought about something or another 25 out of the 21 years I have known him. :rtfl: Something happens to him it would like a sibling. Now a legend.
That's it! and all these young whipper snappers! :rtfl:

For what it's worth, it's good to see...
 

guys and competitors who were raised up around each other still play at this late age. I know a lot of my podnas from Memphis growing up are either dead, on crack, homeless, or no where to be found. I decided young I was gonna take that educational route and leave Memphis.

I know many of you're families up north was able to work at the auto plants which gave y'all some stability in leagues and life in general. We never had that in Memphis.

Like y'all, we had big-time leagues. Every once in a while, when I head back to Memphis, I drop by the old neighborhood and see who is still playing. The rules are still the same and the passion is still just as deep.

But most have moved on. They always wish the energy was still there to make the league tick. I just find it really fascinating that you guys still stay in close proximity of each other and those leagues in Detroit were in neighborhoods just streets apart sometime.

Reg

That was the beauty of it Reg!
 

Many of the leagues played differently and because there were so many leagues you only had to go a block or two over to find a set of rules you like.

I remember some guys incorporating dice into the game but I never stuck around because I didn't like it and they were not the only caterer in town.

What I do now is take the value of all that is offered because what was once only a block or two away to explore is now in Texas, Caliornia, New York, Ohio, Philadelphia etc . . .

I just enjoy the game.

I have never used the words, "I hate the box." Wait a minute, what was the subject? mgngcrz

Wolf
 

Wolf - that was just plain wrong...

And in the spirit of "just plain wrong", let me introduce the Lions new mascot next year...roar

Editor's Note: To whomever plays the Lions in any league, it's nothing personal. Just amped up to play EF in Detroit with some great coaches and am trying to stay light and pump things up a bit.

As I dust of my Jordans
 

Welcome to the league Tom. I'm sure you will have a great experience.

The 2010 GLEFL
Lions

Young Man!
 

You betta' btddhrs btddhrs btddhrs !

And I don't mean beat a dead horse! :rtfl:

PS. Wolf, I have to totally agree with you! thmbsp$

Back to the box. I love the box, altough I have had MANY devistating calls go against me. It brings into the game a missing element that you would have in a real game. Personal fouls, holding calls, injuries and a few more turn-overs than you would have without it.

What used to bother me are the fumbles when a player is in the clear with no-one around him.

This was pretty unrealistic, however, in a real game how often do you see a back or a receiver break the line of scrimmage and there is no one around him for 10- 15 yards? It does happen, but not that often. Except when the board stops, miniature players don't pursue the ball, nor they reach out and punch the ball out of ball carriers' hand, or grab a face mask or hit a guy after the play is over. The box gives you most if not all of the intangible aspects of the game you just don't have without it.

Frankly the game was getting boring and predictable before the box came along. I don't think the box makes average coaches better. Practice, talent and experience will do that, but just like real football, a turnover or a penalty or even an injury can mean that the best team may not win.

If we take an honest look at the need for national set of rules, you have to consider some form of a shake box for the element it ads to a pretty static board game.

I think Kenny hit on something really important about...
 

overcoming things like this. It does make sense and something I have always preached as well.

Steve, I remember so long ago you were not a "Box Man" as many were not but to see the words of "I love the Box" come out of you is why I continue to be that "monomaniac" the Tom spoke of early on in this post.

I just tell people over and over, "It's not as cheezy as they thought". Things do seem to occur like in reality but we know, these are inanimate objects so you will never cover all bases.

But just knowing you play in a system that can get you 80-100 plays (if the refs and statisticians are working), you know that if you keep poking at that ball, eventually you'll (shake the box) strip that ball.

In Texas, we will not play without the Box. Saturday, we spent about 1/2 hour in search of the box. We know how boring the game can get without the box so it is always important to have some type of box ready to be shook.

Reg

Swagz
 

Jamel,

Thanks for the welcome and definitely looking forward to getting on the board with y'all. I'm the rookie/fresh meat so those Lions will be ready to feast.

A buddy I worked with who was from Detroit used to live and die with the Lions and he got the Velvet Lion / Jeff Garcia cartoon and the tiger roar picture so I felt compelled to share. They're both just plain wrong, but funny.

Please save another 0 for 10 and box dropped pass for your trip to Lambeau this fall!!!

You Michigan guys are great coaches and I envy your league comradarie and depth so this will be an awesome fall no matter what the scores are.

Tom

Tom:

I think you are really going to enjoy the Great Lakes this year. Many coaches with new teams and a fresh new outlook. Could be the best season yet for the Great one!

THE BOX.....
 

REG,you know how I feel about the box, you have seen me play with the BOX
and how it rips me a new one. KEN, you are right but I have lost more games here lately cause of the box near the end of games. one game particularly the 1st game of MTW LEAGUE. Ifeel you JAMEL.$br# $br# $br# $br#



BRONCOMAN

thmbsp$

Norbert Revels

You know what?
 

Friday night I lost to both Jim and Norbert. For the first time in my life I quit out of frustration. I had several fumbles on plays that would have got me back in the game, numerous penalties, six in a row that committed personally. My day was horrible. My team was playing great but every time I got up the box knocked me back down. To add to that my game plan against Norbert totally sucked. Couple that with his great team and I lost by the largest margin that I could remember.

To sum it up I make enough mistakes on my own and that box piled on me to the tune of about 15-17 negative calls and the calls that went for me was Jim losing his QB for the game and another player for the game. We joked about what is he going to do switch boxes. Hopefully I'll catch the same breaks but to be honest I wouldn't want that to happen to none of my leaguemates.

I think that fumbles should only count when you make tackles, period. It is like Yahtzee when you get rewarded with something that in no way correlates with what happens on the field. I don't like going in the end zone uncontested and the board stops both disrupting your players run and then running back thirty yards to fumble. We average anything from 20-40 tackles a game. That's up to 40 opportunities for a fumble a game. One time I stopped the board for a fumble and Jim's man fell over right as he was cutting toward the end zone. He eventually scored but what if he didn't?

The passing box is now a total contradiction to the fumble rule because there is no way possible to throw an INT even if a guy is sitting directly to the right or left of the player. The 12 means nothing unless someone is in the path but you can fumble with both double 1's and double 2's. I think that needs to be corrected. 12 should be an INT no matter what. In hindsight the rule should have been left alone. Reginald put those rules in for a reason and it is clear to me that they should have simpley been left alone. This ruleset is designed for small tweaks, not modification.

I could afford to lose to both Jim and Norbert because it will all come down to taking care of business in my own division. The positive is that I learned a lot about my team and the potential of OSU is tremendous.

The negative is that in week one the rules for the passing box was 8-12 for interceptions which meant that I would have had four interceptions. After that the rule was modified so now Jim has total control of risking an interception. Us TTQB passers do not. The recipient of that first week gift was the commissioner, now it seems twisted and overcompensated for Jim's opponents. Jim and I talked about this so don't expect or look at this as a knock on him.

I think that last year was more fun and if winning becomes the only factor for playing then I am out after this year. Some of the modifications clearly suggest that to me.

Just my thoughts.

Ken
 

How many bad shakes did you have, 2, 5, 6 or *17* ?

Norbert

KEN GREAT POST.
 

KEN,


iTS JUST HOW THIS STYLE GOES, I saw the box do damage in the bam this weekend. I agree, i think a fumble should occur if a player is tackled. it would simulate the ball being stripped or the player being hit hard and the ball is knocked out. It does make sense.


BUT I WILL ADMITT, THE BOX IS GREAT FOR THE GAME. IT CAN CHANGE THINGS IN A SECOND. ANYBODY CAN LOSE AT ANYTIME IN THIS STYLE. NO MATTER HOW GOOD YOU ARE.


MANTARAYDRE