On any Given Day: Anybody can lose in the CBSMF
 

One of the greatest things about what shows up in the CBSMF is that "On any given day, anybody can lose". Now, the mentality of how a person wins has to change. The culture has to change. The thought that "I am stronger than you so I should win". Some people use to say "the Shootout style was 2-hand touch". Be that as it may, it is a style of play that does not running backs average 25 yards on 5 carries.

It is a style that the great runners average 7,8, and 9 yards per run. That's still too high of an average for my blood. With that being said, some teams get in 50 plays alone and leave a ball game with more than 90 plays ran. It just depends on the officiating. But the thing is, everybody has a chance to win and everybody has a chance to lose in this style of play.

The culture changes from "If we were playing such 'n such way, you would never beat me. That is not the case. Teams that may not be as strong physically as others but may be more skilled or cerebral in their approach and that can be the winning edge.

If you lose one week means nothing in the Shootout. Some guys think they have a patent on winning and you wonder, "How will they accept losing when they lose?" It is inevitable. Will that coach then blame it on "The Box" or use every trick in the book to try to win? Sometimes it just happens - you lose!

But on any given day, you should know that you can lose. The greatness of playing this way is that you never know how "The Box" will roll that day. Sometimes it's your best friend and other times, it's your worst enemy!

It can change the flow of a game in a matter of seconds. I call it momentum. It will be interesting as the season grinds to a close which teams will play well in Canton. We can do all the analysis, predictions, and postulations we want but at the end of the day, really, nobody knows. So many teams are so close from a skill position and knowledge and physicality that a game can be won with a strip of the ball, a devastating injury, or a crucial penalty that turns the tide.

The culture has changed. "The Box" is becoming integrated into the thinking of the CBSMF Leaguemates. Everyone tense up when it is shaken but most still rely on it to help them win. The opportunities will be many for most coaches but remember, on any given day, anybody can lose in the CBSMF.

Catch the Action in Canton - August 5th thru August 8th

Agreed.
 

This particular year the box has taken more than it has given. Quite frankly, I haven't liked it one bit and have often times considered playing somewhere without it.

Yesterday, Norbert lost four fumbles but he still had a chance to when. After seeing that I realized my fumble or two could be overcome. You also have to be effective on both sides of the ball. Sure, my defense was not as great as last year but offensively I was better, scored more, and became more dangerous as the year progressed.

It's just different in every way but I would still like the balance of playing without it as well.

What I think the box lacks is positive plays....

Right now, it typically only helps the defense. The defense can get injuries and penalties...but I haven't seen an injury change a game yet. Penalties can be significant. Problem is, all the other results are negative to the offense.

How about adding something to make shaking the box bad for the defense as well. Perhaps, you could have the option for a "breakaway" and add 20 yards to a run or completed pass?

I'm sorry to be advocate but the box most certainly goes both ways Robert...
ODD or EVEN... Offense or Defense

Injuries play a big part too.. ask ECU.. he lost his starting center and left tackle vs me at different parts of the game... it certainly change his game plan.

I personally think the box is what keeps electric football alive... love it or hate it... You always get a roar one way or the other after you hear "DOUBLES" called

just my 2 cents, celo

I agree 100%.

Hey Wolf
 

:( , we need a icon to show grey tape around the mouth, mine is coming off.

P.S. :mad: In my game against Jim, the box rolled 4 fumbles against me :rnt; , 3 of the 4 fumbles were TD's :rllngs:.

P.S. I have a question, has any coaches stop playing the game because of the box ?, I want stop, but on the 4th fumble against me, I walked away from the table towards the street and had a smoke, I didn't call a timeout or anything, the guys didn't say a word cause they knew that was (clean word here) MESSED up..

Norbert Revels
Pro Prospects

Norbert's Box
 

I just usually buy a whole new set of dice at that point Norbert... shkthbx: The box giveth, the box taketh away.....

Norbert....here are my thoughts about the box... Geno H

I have seen injuries change...
 

the course of a game. I have seen starting QBs get lost for a game because of an injury and the coach has no confidence in the second stringer. He throws the ball and it is then picked off. He then refuses to throw the ball the rest of the evening because he just can not trust himself to make an accurate throw.

I have seen (in reality) teams have 3-4 fumbles stripped in a game. It does not happen all the time but there are games when the outrageous will happen. Teams learn to play through those situations. It will make you a better coach.

The Box is an equal-opportunity killer. What happens to the defense does happen to the offense as well. You can be making that huge drive at the end of the game and have an offensive pass interference happen. It totally sucks your momentum and you lose! I've seen it happen both ways.

Like Saintcelo said, this is one of the things that keep you coming back for more. It's addictive. It PO's you but just the intrigue of not knowing what will happen makes it that more entertaining. You've got to play in it a while to fully appreciate what it does. As long as you play in a style of play that gives you about 80 plays or more to work with, there will be countless opportunities to rebound from an infraction, injury, or fumble. It just has a way of working out.

Having played 2 seasons under the CBSMF, in general the box appears to have the greatest effect of taking BIG plays away from the offense, even though the odds may be even.

I have seen more TDs taken away from the offense than 3rd down sacks turned into first downs against the defense.

I don't really have an issue with it in that the rules tend to favor the offense and scoring. Being able to stack receivers and one more motion in the backfield than the defense is allowed is a great advantage to the offense.

Even in Norberts 3 turnover game, how many touchdowns did he end-up scoring? The game went into overtime and he still had a chance to win. Love it or hate it I don't think it should be changed in any way.

My 2 cents.

I LOVE THE BOX ,NOT BECAUSE I BEAT NORBERT WITH IT (WITH OUT IT NORBERT WOULD HAVE WON THAT GAME) BUT IT MAKES THE GAME FUN TO ME AND FAIR SO EVERYONE HAS A CHANCE TO WIN THE GAME, THATS WHY I LOVE THE BOX AND EVEN IF IT GOES AGAINST ME I STEEL LOVE THE BOX !

SO WITH OUT THE BOX THE SO SO COACHES WOULD NOT HAVE A CHANCE TO WIN A GAME VS A TOP RANK COACH.......... BUT THATS JUST ME.


SO JUST shkthbx: AND LIVE WITH IT AND HAVE FUN WITH IT.:rtfl: :rtfl:

shkthbx: shkthbx: shkthbx: shkthbx: shkthbx: shkthbx: shkthbx: shkthbx:

Norbert . . .
 

The Friday Night Meltdown! :rtfl: :rtfl:

I was done right there. But it was right there that I started realizing I couldn't just settle anymore for the level of play I was at. It just seems to rear it's ugly head against me at the worst moments. Just got to up the level of play.

Ken
 

I allmost lost it, ask Jim, he told me he saw that look I have when I'm REALLY ********ed off, so he backed off laughing and pickin at me, that Jim was nailin me though,.........I tell you what, that dam box allmost ended up 6 backyards over,.......................my P.S. question was has any coach stop playing the game period because of the box ?, if so, maybe we should limit the bad things that can happen to a offense or defense,......like 2 fumbles a game or whatever, if not, I'm cool with it, you just gotta buckle up and play D.

Norbert Revels

I like the box the way it is, as when I came out of solitaire play and learned a competition ruleset three years ago this is what I learned.

Those who are not happy with the fumble rate but like the box in general, can just stop using the 2 six sided dice for the fumble and maybe add a 20 sided in its place and figure out a fumble factor using that die instead.

It still gives the randomness of the box but can reduce the fumble percentage to where you are happy.

Norbert, I have had games...
 

where I have had 4 fumbles, a couple of interceptions, and penalties and I never complain about that. I think when you and I played, I had 3 fumbles and two interceptions. That's about 5 turnovers.

So many times, when it happens to the other coach, we laugh at that just looking at it as bad luck (but still a part of the game). When it happens to oneself, it cause an ire that makes us want to consider changing the rules.

You know, the great Len Dawson once fumbled the ball 7 times in a football game in the NFL. Brett Favre thew a record 6 interceptions in a playoff game before.

Sometimes, these things happen. I've been playing this style long enough to know that there are ways we have always separated this from happening. I know many have talked about shaking the box on every play. I have always argued that the shake should be at the discretion of the coach. This is where the experience and luck comes in to play. These are vital mental advantages of why one coach may be more experienced than another coach. Many people want to argue that everyone should shake it on every play. I totally disagree for that simple reason of the differences between great coaches and average coaches. The great coaches know when to shake the box. The others use futile attempts to even up the score.

I have seen games where you can get a rash of fumbles or injuries or penalties and I have seen games where there are no fumbles or injuries or 1 penalty. Never have I wanted to adjust the probability because I would have a lesser chance to lose. I just roll with the punches. I take the barbs, ridicule, and laughter of the Peanut Gallery and know that, "Let's see how they will handle it when it works against them".

Reg

It's just a huge adjustment Reg!
 

Like everything else. It's just sometimes it really gets the better of you.

It's like being the Lions coach during the 0-16 season for some games but you play on.

I got a fumble recovery on a third and 20 with my team making a play. Heck, they just seem to come when I have already stopped you. Come to think of it, I probably still don't shake it nearly as much as I should. Maybe some of that bad Karma will rub off on my opponent. :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl:

Anyways, on to the next.

Kenny, you ain't ever lied!!!
 

It does get you. I feel sorry for guys when they are having fumbulitis! It's one of the worst feelings in the Shootout world. I've lost two Super Bowls when I went around end on a sweep and the runner gets into the open field to go untouched only to have the coach shake the box and a fumble happens.

You never get over that! It is enough to make you walk out the room but it's like a drug. You play on because you're thinking somewhere down the line, lady-luck will even out the score. Coaches like Norbert are so good that you feel that they can still figure out a way to manage the turnovers and walk away with a win.

Sometimes, the turnover ratio can be so great. It can be difficult to overcome. I just tell a cat like Norby, "Hang in there and trust the system. It's 50-50 and it will eventuually break your way too". Sometimes you've just got to take the good games with the bad games.

One thing that I do know. The best thing to do is try and matriculate that field as fast as possible. The longer your offense is out on the field, the greater the chance of something happening. That's where we laugh and talk about the "Undisciplined teams" getting the ball stripped or illegal procedure which may stall a drive or give a drive new life. Tell Norbert hang in there and keep playing hard and he will be okay.

HEYYYYYYYYYYYYY
 

Hang in there you say,........no need for that type of talk youngfella, Norbert is one of the top coaches in the country in ALL styles of play,........I allmost still won the game (with 4 fumbles), that was due to my coaching, my team and ability to think quick and make adjustments as time is running,.......not to mention the best passer in the country under preasure, just think, I'm playing with miggle bigmen figures REG, and still scoring over 30 a game, I don't have any pretty customs or holders on my team, just wait till next year though, I will have grabbers and a full team of customs.

Norbert Revels
Pro Prospects.

The box...
 

WOW!!! I love this thread.

Most guys only feel like it helps the offense because drives are allowed to continue on defensive penalties and most defensive penalties result in a 1st down. You never really worry about it offensively because you still have the ball and more often than not with the exception of a fumble you don't lose your opportunity to put points on the board. So it seems as if it hurts the defense more. The better way to look at it is that it helps both coaches rather than looking at it from an offensive and defensive perspective.

I've seen interceptions dropped. I've seen holding on the defense on a crucial 3rd down. In fact my first ever super bowl win was against Oscar Woodard. I was up by 5 points with less than a minute to go. He threw the game winning touchdown and the shkthbx: was shaken! It was a 6-6 on the offense the play was brought back and he failed to score. I won my first super bowl on an offensive push off by the wide receiver! haha

It helps both sides of the ball and the reality of it is that when you tense up and began to worry about the box effecting you it seems like that's when it really gets hot. haha

The box is great the way it is. If you start messing with the integrity of the box and allow changes then you will increase the odds of a lot more things happenining. If you ever took the time to count the number of shakes per game and divided that by the number of times action occured on the box you will find out that it is a very small percentage. Even more so...divide it by the number of penalties or fumbles that occur during the course of game. That would be even lower. What happens is that it always seems like it happens at the most critical time. It happens that way because of the "law of averages". By the 4th quarter we would have shaken the box so many times, it is highly likely that a critical double is about to hit. It's the law! You can't change it.

You gotta love it and there is strategy to overcome it but not to get around it.

However, what I would like to see happen is that at the end of the game coaches have the opportunity to kneel on the ball. I've seen shakes at the end of the game that cause fumbles and the coach that would have lost if "the kneel" was an option wind up getting an extra opportunity and winning the game. It was exciting when it happened but looking back on it and the way the game is played now...I'd like to see the kneel option implimented.

I have customs Norbert!
 

If you count slightly melting the arms so that those guys with Harpoons for arms doesn't get them.

All jokes aside. I play with buzzball stock and Haiti Repro. The only thing I do is drop the arms down based upon the rules. It's amazing what you can do with customs but can't do with stock. But that is another story.

Norbert you are right to toot your horn a bit. That passing display yesterday says a great deal and you are one talented dude, especially offensively.

I think Mike made a great point when he stated to leave it the way it is. The Pisarcek (Pardon my spelling) analogy was great. Kneel, game over, run fumble!

I would like to play one league that doesn't use the box and one that does to get that balance. You really do have to up your game though. There are people with a lot of time and determination right now. I am trying to get to that point but until I retire like Jimmy I'm not losing in other areas to win at this game. But I will surely continue to try. ;)

WOW.. so much to quote... but I will say this...

LEAVE the box alone... It will come in your favor eventually...

This is how I relate it to football

BIG PLAY just happened ie. TD, first down, INT etc

*When you hear the shake of that box...
Thats coaches, fans etc... checking the field for flags

*If no double are called.. Then no flags

*If doubles are called..
Now everyone is waiting for the ref's call against the "O" or "D" or in other words, "ODD or EVEN"

*Once its called..
Here comes the GASP and ROAR... common ya'll "THATS FOOTBALL!!!"

Little secret of mine:
EVERY TIME I hit a BIG play... I hear that damm box that I love being shook... My arss clinches up every time... even if I look as cool as the other side of the pillow
Well thats probably everyone one of ya'll too.

lol, celo

ps. the silence after a 4th fumble is awesome!!! part of the game!! go to a home team bar... witness that home teams silence after theve lost that 4th fumble... It's football... It's part of the game

You know when...
 

You know the thread is getting a little chippy when Norbert went "third person" on his last post and Celo's arsss starts clenching.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


Like any product, there are room for improvements and tweaks in the box. Since it is a percentage based system, somebody should probably do a research project on the percentages of turnovers, percentage of penalties, and add a few tweaks and adjustments along the way to match up closer to the NFL.

I still like the idea of when a fumble is called on a runner during a run, they have the ability to pivot race out of bounds. If no one tackles them before they get OB, then it is not a fumble (or if they cross the goal line). However, if they do get touched, then the tackle caused that fumble. I think that adds a bit of realism and definitely excitement.