Coaches that sit on the fence
 

WHAT WOULD IT TAKE FOR THESE COACHES TO JOIN A LEAGUE ???
This goes out to coaches that do not want to play in a league .
Why do you not want to join a league ?
What if I could tell you that you can play in a league where there is no cheating and the fun of the game is placed above winning .
Where there is a feeling of family among league mates .

I am just wondering why some coaches do not want to join leagues . I know I collected for years and only played solitaire , then I discovered Aaron Johnson and the C.O.E.F.L. and never looked back !

Alright enough of the mushy stuff.
FRANK,,BLACK SUNDAY IS COMING FOR YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:fghttt: :fghttt: :fghttt: :fghttt:

thmbsp$ I was sitting around just collecting stuff and never used it. Untill now! Jeff, Nico and I are going to get our two games in this weekend. That will make 7 for me. Ill be half way there! I have spoken to others about The Mid-Ohio and alot have the same response. No time. We can play everyone in our division twice. You can get all your games in just from your division. That would be three maybe four meetings in a season.

What about those of us that "Want" to play in a league? Poor Tom and I have to travel somewhere to play in a league. Kinda sucks that there is no committment in Minnesota, besides Tom and I.

Travel + Time
 

Even now, it always comes down to time. I can always set aside a couple hours for just about anything (movie, going to the store, watching a game), but to set aside a whole day (packing up, driving a couple hundred miles, playing games) is really difficult.

I think that if more people had in-town leagues they would have no problem joining. That's the hard part though.

If I had at least 5 other guys here in Dayton, OH, I would be able to play a whole season in about a month.thmbsp$

DR

if you think you have no time now, wait til the baby lffng$ lffng$ lffng$
you will be known as Roller, the coach that formerly frequented the M.F.C.A. chatboard

yeah that would stink.
There are 4-5 coaches around Columbus that do not want to play in a league or maybe they do not have the time , teams, bases to be competitive , or something else , or maybe it is our league itself .
I know when I was first invited over to AJ's house to watch them play a game , I was the only white guy in the room of 8-10 coaches. They { C.O.E.F.L. league } treated me like family . It was about playing the game and having fun .
We as a league { now MID- OHIO } try to do the same for every coach, because I remember what it was like to be the new guy .

Speaking on behalf of the new guys, Im glad I joined your league. You guys do everything possible to make it fun and competitive. I am hoping to recruite two more players for next year. They are in The New Castle Area. As a matter of fact they are in my neighborhood. My brother-in law and a friend of mine. We shall see. My brother-in-law loves Joe's Lions! :hmmmmm:

It is many reasons.
 

league play.

There are so many different reasons per individual.

1)cost and travel is the biggest one. it cost alot of money to play in another city than your own. Some coaches like different styles which may not be offered close to where they live. So either they sit it out and just collect figures, or play solitaire. You may lover a league but is it worth it to travel and spend maybe $500 to play on a weekend. A coach may just stay home and buy a watts board with that money. or a team detailed by a master.
i think every coaches dream is to play in there own backyard with a rule set they love, with coaches who have the same passion. It's like when you went out to play basketball or baseball with the same group of guys all the time when you were younger.
I thought there was going to be an east division for the mid ohio league this year but i have not heard from anyone. I did not plan on going to beaver falls and now columbus. i going because i love the rules and coaches. Also, i wanted to play at least 8 to 9 games and uphold alot of my sked.

mantaraydre

The hobby...
 

is categorized in many levels. I have always said that there are...

Coaches/Players - People who enjoy the hobby by playing
Ambassadors - People who enjoy promoting the hobby and growing it
Collectors/Historians - People who stick their value in the history of the game
Artist (Painters/Customizers/Engineers) - The people who give the hobby life and have transported it into the 21st century.

We need all of them to survive but all of them aren't players and some of them fall into many if not all of the categories.

In most major league sports regardless of which one...the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL you have all of these same sub categories.

More often than not the owners of these franchises have never played a single minute of the sport but they understand how to run a business. So I appreciate all of the individuals that don't play the game but have found tremendous value in the hobby in other areas.

The term 'league' is a turn off for some. (same problem with Subbuteo)

We have taken the term league out of everything we do and advertise it as a social club, that does have a league aspect if players so wish to participate.

agree with Shane
 

and that's the reason why more and more persons (and not only on this forum) will play solitaire. Me and 5 of my friends (which is a big league here in Montreal) play miniature football, sometimes Subbuteo soccer and will try to do a crokinole-hockey league (my new custom game) tried to make a league but it's tough. And there's so many reasons (schedule, travelling, family, etc...) why peoples are not involved to leagues.

That's my 2 cents on it.

Have a great day

Benoît cnd:$

This thread is mostly asking the question of coaches that live in a local area that already has an existing league. Drive time is less than 30 minutes.

Coaches who sit on the fence are girls....:D......
I'm the last one on the right...:rtfl:

This is an interesting topic because a lot depend...
 

on where you are at in life whether you sit on the fence or want to play in a league.

For me, I created the DFW Miniature Football League in '95. It was one of those grassroot things that you put your time, sweat, money, and sacrifice into and hope others will follow your lead and do likewise.

For someone who wanted it to be as close to reality as I did, you were willing to show people everything you knew about the game in hopes they would pass it on to others and grow the league.

You bring in "Road Warriors" with the intentions of spreading the roots nationally. Sometimes, you even pay their way to come here, because if you had it and they were having financial difficulties, you did that to make it work and so everyone could have fun.

What you think the hobby could be, many did not or do not envision what you thought it could be. Bad characters, you allow in your league, just because you wanted numbers, competition, and good times.

Some people really don't want to be bothered with the human elements and problems of others. You do so much for people and never feel the support in return. It sours your thoughts about being involved with others.

So it's like two ships passing in the night. One going one way and another going the other way. You loved years ago the enthusiasm of the young and energetic guys who kept you interested in the game. But as time went on, the enthusiasm turned into out-of-control egos where winning became the only priority. Having fun, good times, and just plain ole' good company was a thing of the past.

Money is always an issue for "Road Warriors". It should be but you would think, if guys advocated these people being in their league, they would open up their homes to letting them stay there (just for a weekend). Hospitality should always be utmost of importance.

I guess when I had one guy try to punch a hole through my kitchen wall because of a bad call, the writing was definitely on the wall.

I am not saying guys should not be in leagues. I think leagues, if put in the right perspective, can be one of the best social outlets there is. You get to know people, form friendships and bonds, and hold each other accountable as men.

But one must know what is entailed of him and know what he is expecting of that league before he becomes involved. I always regret guys who I brought into leagues (especially Road Warriors) and I walk away. I feel like I've let them down. But again, it is sometimes like two ships passing in the night. After 16 years of league play, you're just not interested.

Maybe, just maybe, if you start up a league again and learn from those mistakes, it may be much different but Father Time becomes the big factor.

Reg

:D :eek: :) ;) :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl:

jeff, your a white guy...lol.

i tried the travel thing, it is pretty tuff to do. i remember going to 4 gamedays in 7 weeks. 140 miles one way, i went and i loved every minute of it, until i had to pay for that gas. 4x4 trucks aint cheap on the gas dept.

i even got invited to the old New Orleans league, i went, played most of the day, came home.... 3 games.....TEN hours on the road.

i even went to Austin(5 hrs) one way, played RAIDERMAN , with no sleep whatsoever...drove home....5 more hours.


so yeah, i WAS commited,but not anymore. i am like a lot of guys here, i NEED a league Close.

Guessing Game
 

My hypotheses:

Fear of losing, coupled with the high price tag associated with equiping yourself to be competitive and/or keeping up with the jones'.

I know that I didn't want to play in the MidOhio with just one of my Fab5 teams and a generic board... I had to have a team that was on par with everybody else.

Maybe, social anxiety?;incompatible personalities?:confused:

"Much Thought"
 

Ive given to this very subject, as we begin to biuld the foundation towards a "PRO League", all of these points will no doubt continue to be relevant, understandably so. Time vs. Distance + Finance will always be a dominant factor in any type of national effort undertaken, with the real possibility that we may fail.:( To over look this will not only be unwise but could prove to be the very reason it dont take shape, how do we address this? 1: Create an atmosphere of cooperation & competion at the same time, while each coach is an individual they also belong to a larger group in the Region, where most of there games will be played. 2: Make the scheduling of games as flexible as possible, with minimal manditory travel, only 1 travel date (outside of your own region) will be required to participate, the rest of your games can be played in your region.(UNLESS U MAKE THE FINALS) 3 By relying on already existing venues, coaches can plan ahead to play other coaches at the event, drawing in more regional coaches to play there home games, making it financially possible as the season will progress through the events already set. I have confidence that we can create something larger than ourselves, that can drive the hobby into the future through cooperation. Many of these points will no doubt be addressed next month, with a level head & a since of direction it can be achieved!thmbsp$ p.s. The fall off rate, will also be built into the format, not all coaches will finish, we know that, plan for it, there are 7 regions, all we need is 5 coaches from each to finish, we'll have a field of 35!mgngcrz Also I have proposed some type of system to help with travel costs for the coaches that make the finals, we dont have sponsors, so again we have to make it happen, can some one say "MARKETING COMMITTEE":D this is a real effort from the top down, volunteers welcomed in all fields & disciplines.:D

Outside question and point of view : in your leagues, do you also play for fun, or only on league objectives ?

Little tournaments or play for fun are a way less intimidating. Some specials events also, for new comers

for example, an ironman tournament, with open box rules for tweaking (each coach receiving one sprue of 24 5bucks miggle bases). So everyone can learn, teach, and play equal , with low budget, for educational and fun purpose only.

for more advanced players, one shots tournaments, 1 by months or couple of months, so people can play competition without all the personal schedules problems.


I 'm sure a lot of new people would like that. Tell one guy "you'll have to come and play 12games, 40men rosters, pro bases tweaking, or don't come to play" or tell him "come with what you have, when you can, we'll play, chat and have a drink, and if you want you'll be able to play that or this competion later" are two completly diferent things.


Special nights or events for learning painting, tweaking, strategy, etc...Not only the scheduled "pro" league games.

"All exists"
 

Dimitri, that is exactly how it is here, we made need to look into getting u over here at least once. The proposed "PRO" league is a creation of ours to save, all that u spoke of, as it stands now all of the Major tournys from Miggle to Buzzball is in decline, or have folded all together. By creating a league based on those tournys were hoping to increase participation thus making the efforts of those that take the time, worth it. Without the tourny's, its local leagues & solitaire!:( In order to create interest thus stimulating participation, a system of competition must be put in place, we choose to call it "PRO" or travel league, the thought is 1 ruleset, written by the Regions, 1 Champion out of said Regions, the "UNDISPUTED" so to speak. Now thats interesting!:D

We have those here in Detroit....in the red light district! MAKE IT RAIN!!!!

We had a coach that gave a existing coach a board , high dollar bases for his entire team and the coach was instantly competitive , even beat Frank Jacobs lffng$ lffng$ lffng$ , but then the coach just stopped showing up and was never heard from again.

I hope a new coach does not feel he can't bring out a stock team and board and join our league.
It costs big bucks for a team of all custom players at $10 apiece and 40 players = $400 plus a custom board @ $ 500 and then bases , decals, facemasks, a coach can easily be over $1200 . That is alot of cash to put out for anything !
So I say bring what you have and a good league will help the new coaches out , because as a league , you are only as strong as your weakest player.

Boom.

Ed wnnrcgr shkthbx:

ROFLMAO!
 

That's nine I's, about 17 you's, and not one WE. :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl:

That's a start for sure. thmbsp$

FOR JEFF!
 

THIS IS THE KEY HERE! GREED KILLS! thmbsp$

Ken, I've been giving out ...
 

WE's for 16 years in the hobby. I've been about as unselfish when it comes to this game as anybody.

The question was about how coaches sit on the fence and I was just speaking from my own perspective. I think I've given my fairshare and done many WE's for many things in this game.

Reg

Thanks Reg
 

For all the contributions. thmbsp$ thmbsp$ thmbsp$

That 1200 is what you CAN spend it IS NOT what you have to spend to be competitive. This hobby is like any other hobby as far as cost you can spend alot of money for no reason or be sensible and shop around or ask for help. I have given away teams that are competitive anywhere and it cost less than 100 bucks.


Time and distance causes most league issues.

Geno H

Geno H

Maybe we could . . .
 

Set up some kind of starter kit when people enter the leagues. Keep it reasonable so that can continue to build their team and skills.

Money is a driving force in many ways. Help from leaguemates should not come at a healthy cost. We experienced coaches should ensure that we give them our best product to keep them in the hobby.

We must tweak bases for newer coaches that last long enough to add pieces instead of being tweaked just enough to break down before you can add new parts. Attrition before addition is a vicious cycle than can kill leagues almost in an instant.

Just my thoughts.

"Costs"
 

Just like everything else, depends on the coach, why drive a porche when a chevette will get u there. Time or Money either or, some may think because I customize its easy for me, its not, where I & many others have excelled is in the time rather than costs, but its a trade off, it takes me just as long to do mine as others. So as costs are a factor, not as big as u may think, all it takes is a little time. Where does this being competitive out the box come from? As with everything else practice & preserverence should be the determining factor when evaluating new coaches. How long does it take for u to make $20 at your job, if it takes a customizer 3 hrs. to create that pose u want, how much is he really making, less materials, do the math fellas, it is what it is, costs reflect time as best as possible, without going over board, imagine the costs if real economics was applied to what were doing.

I am sure cost can be a factor.

I am still waiting to hear from someone that is in an area with a league and chooses not to play.

YEP
 

Time or Money, for newbies to get there now "Money" to move through the ranks, create your own team, tweak your own team, biuld your own board for that team "TIME" either, or!mgngcrz no way around this one fellas!:( Those that choose "TIME" my phone has & always will be open to those that wish to create, for they are the ones that keep it alive, as only one can do so much. :D

It 's why I spoke about "open box" format. It's a thing that I saw in slot racing clubs. After some time, all the members of a club start to buy option parts, racing material, electronic controller, etc...and create racing classes for that type of cars.

Of course, if a beginner come into the club, he'll see he has to pay the club entry fee (let say 50usd) + a super pro electronic controller (200uSD), a race prepared car (around 200usd). AND he will have to prepare and tweak the car, because all that money will not make him competitive.

What is "open box format" ? It's a way to organize fair competitions. The guys pay a fee to enter a race. That fee (let say 70usd) will cover the cost of a standard brand new car, never used, in box. The organizators also have some spare new motors and specialized tires matching their race track.

When the race opens, every guy receive his car, motor and tires. No matter you're in the club for years of since yesterday. Equallity. They just put the tires on the car, and make the race. That type of tournaments is interesting because beginners and "pros" share the same material and same event.


On a season playing, same thing. They open several classes for everyone. Stock (means not modified) cars, modified cars, unlimited modified cars.

They also open at least ONE special schedule and a ranking for beginners/intermediate pilots (= for example, new comers with less than 1year in the club). So beginners can win or class themselves in a specific league matching their skills, in one word, progress, during the league season.


On a miniature football club/league, do the same. See what your members prefer concerning bases and figures, and make special events, schedules and rankings for these new comers.

FOr me, it's a lot better way to bring new people than giving them complete pro teams and stuff like that. THe good old story of "tell a man to fish" thing.


For example, imagine these events :

open box tournament : everyone (pro or beginner) will obtain a new bag of miggle painted 11man team, and about 24 bases (proline rookie, for example) new in bags.

they all have to tweak their bases before the event. No special tools or treatments. The good ones helps the worst ones. Perhaps special regular league ranking bonus points if you help the newcomers to do it, if you don't have "natural born teachers" in your league :D .

OR you can make a thing even simplier : one of the regular coach tweak enough bases equally to complete all the teams for the tournament. Then, put them in hats (one for linemen, one for receivers, one for loopers, etc...) and each coach in the tournament will pick up randomly 11 bases for his bag of miggle figures. Then, play the tournament, and let see what happens.

For regular season league, make a special newcomers ("rookie" or "freshman") league. Limit the rosters and the type and numbers of bases.


Just ideas from behind the fence :D Perhaps those ideas could seem silly or even naive, but believe me, I had some chats with really good slot racers (international champions during the 60's-70's-80's, from France, USA, germany), and they ALL said that the hobby has been killed in the 80's because of the "race for better weapons" stuff.

During that aera, slot racing was not playing with scalextric or aurora stuff anymore, people built big wood race tracks, they didn't use stock plastic car anymore, but metal high spec chassis, rewired motors, "tweaked" cars, special controlers and stuff like that...ANd the hobby almost died with the Veterans of it, because nobody was able to afford the cars, the tracks, and noboby was able to tweak the car the "professional way" these veterans did.

Hopefully, because of the new model running cars appearing in the 90's (plastic), easily available and affordable for almost everyone, the slot racing hobby breathed again. Back to roots sort of thing.


I believe the analogy with MF is really obvious.

Amen!
 

Amen to this!!

This may sound hypocritical coming from a custom board builder, but I think that in order to keep our hobby going, we need a game set/assemble your own kit type thing that costs under $100 and plays well enough to hold someone's interest. We also need to allow newbies (myself included) a means to compete without feeling like they need to spend an inordinate amount of money or time to play.

I also like Dimitri's idea regarding the marketing of our "leagues"; calling them clubs. League's are intimidating, but clubs or social associations aren't. After you get together a few times and scrimmage or play a tournament, you'll be bitten by the bug!!thmbsp$

DR

Money is a driving force in many ways. Help from leaguemates should not come at a healthy cost. We experienced coaches should ensure that we give them our best product to keep them and others in the hobby.


This should be a given especially to those "SELLING"

Bingo regarding the new players. If I told someone they would have to drop $500 to truly be able to get involved I would be laughed at and have generated ZERO interest. Under $100 for a complete starter set is the magic number. Especially for families! Under $100 mom or dad is willing to make a 'impulse purchase' to try something out. Over $100 is an investment. It's just human psyche.

As for the solitaire guys. 'Leagues' will need to reach out to them and invite them to local events that are more than league play if you want to get their eyeballs.

"Products"
 

Believe it or not, that product already exists, its called Miggle, they have an over the counter product available for purchase for a reasonable price. At that price it is the best we have, in order to market a new product many steps have to be taken, large sums of money at a risk no one is willing to take on. Custom products is just that custom, u can take a $10 Miggle team and compete, truly what were talking about is preferrences, what do u prefer, how much time are u willing to invest, do u have the patience to grow & create your own Franchise. The nature of the game has changed, performance far exceeds what has come before, when we start to speak of starter kits at whos cost & time is the next? We cant buy into the notion that u must have a $$$$$ team to compete, it all goes back to time or money.mgngcrz whats your preference?:confused:

That is actually a very good point MW in regards to Miggle! Are they actually available in stores? I have never seen one myself. I found the game again by searching online and got here first not to miggle.

One of the first thing I read on this site when starting to research it was their $150 product (the 620) was actually no good, and you would be better off finding an old one. That actually scared me away from the game initially because your next step up is around $400, now thankfully I looked into it again ten months later and decided the homebrew way was the best way to go for myself.

But you can't blame Miggle at all. They are a company trying to make money on their products. As we all would try to do. And make no mistake Electric Football is not the only game that faces these issues at all.

But getting back to the main point. If you want attendance to expand it has to be as outwardly open and friendly as possible. And as said before 'league' is a scary word for most people. (To me I see 'league' and I can't wait to get involved, but I also like standing in front of 100mph chunks of frozen vulcanized rubber so you can see how I'm in the minority mgngcrz )

Proper information for people when they stumble across you is key. And realize that YOU (any coach who reads this forum) are the best advertisement for this game! A simple question for every dedicated coach on here is to ask yourself 'How many people have I given one the player cards (MFCA business cards) to? And can I give more away?'

Sorry for that bit of a rant :rnt;

You took the words right out of my mouth. thmbsp$

"REALLY"
 

We seem to be overlooking the true nature of what we face ahead, for us that have been around for awhile understand whats at stake. Those that are just getting back to the hobby are excited about finding the hobby well & far advanced than how they remember it, just as I was. Some love the game just as a hobby nothing more, then there those that seek to elevate the game, how its played & embrace competition as a means of boosting the games overall appeal. Both can coexist together, just because others choose to put more time & money into what there doing does not mean that its going to ruin us. To the contrary the innovators are the ones driving advancement in the hobby, just like everything else money will always be a major factor in what kind of car u drive, unless u biuld your own, then time is what awaits u.mgngcrz no way around this fellas, I would like for someone to send me some tweaked bases for free but time is real, unless your so called "set" there is no one that has time to do anything for free just a fact. Compensation is what makes it possible for us to do what we do, without that no figs, boards, bases & other innovations, that take investment & "TIME" to get started & maintained would be possible. Be careful when criticizing what u yourself for what ever reason are not prepared to undertake yourself, youll be surprised at what costs are truly involved!thmbsp$

AMEN......
 

Bruce,
I couldn't have said it any better myself.Thank You !!!!!!
By the way,I pretty much agree with everything you've
said on this subject.

SEMPER FI,
Chris Stacey
Hampton,VA