In my opinon toys vs game
 

The other day their was a post about the game vs toy an efler had a valid arguement about this.Their was post made and points were made.
Then the post was closed and my post taken down this has troubled me.See I thought this is a disscussion board about electric football we are going to have a difference of opinons on a lot of issues, this being a country of free speech we can express our selfs freely!! I respect the rules of the community.But please let us speak!!Miggle began this over censorship of thier board and look how many go their!! If this is a disscussion board on the elf than let us be men and debate the issues we may have!!Happy new year Jim Jackson

I'm With You
 

i put the post on the miggle page and got a lot of responses. i also responded to the post on this page. if we can't speak our minds to a certain degree, then there is no sence talking on these chat pages.
see you in detroit in 3 weeks.




broncoman

I think the issue is that many of these discussions take negative turns that might actually discourage the outsiders looking in from getting involved with our small community.

Topics such as "toy vs game" are sure to ignite another round of baseless debate which is exactly what happened.

One look at that "toy vs game" post and you can see why it was shut down. Many of the writers on this board take very combatitive positions on certain issues. Or perhaps certain individuals are just fun to kick in the krotch...easy targets you know?

Either way, it has to stop on ALL sides...in my opinion.

I can sympathize with WEIRDWOLF as being a board moderator is not fun when you are baby-sitting the members. Cut him some slack. He is not a referree.

Someone has to enforce the rules or these arguments will continue to get uglier.

If board memebers 1,2,3, and 4 have a problem with each other then let them talk it out offline. It is killing the vibe and I personally don't want to read it anymore.

Well Said Decal Master
 

I for one have been involved in some topics and posts that had gone too far, both in the comments I made and that some others made too. I take full responsibility for the boneheaded things I have posted and replied to in the past and am not proud of them.

You are right, when you go back and read this stuff, especially for the newbies or potential coaches, it looks ugly. I now try to read posts and not reply back immediately. The posts will be there later in the day when I can come back and think about what I want to say instead of talking out of pure emotion.

When I returned to the hobby three years ago, there was a league I was looking into. After going to their site and reading their message board I decided it was not for me, I now play mostly solitaire because of it and that very same thing can happen here too.

.
 

I don't remember exactly what the post said, and it doesn't matter as far as my opinion goes. Yes, one should be able to speak their mind as long as they are not demeaning another.

yeah but
 

Yeah I hear ya dm but dig this!! We have to be able to debate issues that what this is all about!! their were no name calling foul language we feeling we are grown men here so come on!!! Let us speak!! Remember miggle did this very thing they decide what can be discussed whats a good topic whats a bad topic and you all ended up here now you guys are doing the very thing that lead to this site think about it!! Jim

You are free to discuss toy versus game as long as you are actually discussing, "toy vs game". The posts in question, in my opinion, no longer were doing that. Keep the discussions going in a constructive manner and on subject and I have no problem with it.

My decision to close the post was valid and I stand by that decision.

wisdom indeed
 

DecalMaster, those are some of the wisest words ever posted on a chatboard! A true masterpiece! Perfectly put. I'm impressed. Keep up the great work along that line. Thanks for stepping up to keep integrity in this hobby.

Amen Decal Master

you have made my point wolf
 

In your opinon!!you decision to close the post was just based on your on thoughts not those who were discussing it!! It was debate!!no name calling insults etc.It becomes flat out censorship!! my friend but it is what it is!! Jimmgngcrz

Sometimes a response is warranted
 

In the past, when guys have "attacked me", on occasions, I've just let it go. I know it goes with the territory. But I am not sure my response back to a coach using my name or my response and those afterwards is what fueled everything, I am not sure. But I do know one thing, I am tired of just letting things slide, because I own a miniature football company.

I've been slammed so many times, I think I am Bam Bam's club on the Flintsones! Yeah, I could have let it go because that's what I do but I just told guys how I saw this toy, a critical eye appeared.

I definitely can tone things down from my perspective with regards to responding to any post, but don't sling my name through the mud over one term I used.

If you want to critique me and the things I say, critique it over the entire body of work. Don't take one word and try to create a firestorm over it. I felt like this was one of those RARE instances, I had to respond (with venom) because my "happy go lucky kind nature" makes people think they can run over you. Say what they want. That's just how I felt on that particular day.

No doubt, even in a world of freedom of speech, we have to respect guys efforts in creating chatboards to come and discuss miniature football. One of my New Year's resolutions was never to look at post that doesn't concern me or things that I was not interested in. I just felt that I was drawn into this because my name was mentioned publicly. I had issues with that.

If I offended anyone, I apologize. It was not my intention to be a lightning rod as it was also not my intention to be critiqued so harshly over a term of endearment to me, which is "toy".

Reginald Rutledge

I Lied, I Gotta Say What I Gotta Say
 

JJ, you had to pull the censorship card! :) READ the very first post (above) by the founder of the Message Board. This is not our chatboard, so we have to follow the rules. Nor is this a "freedom of speech" forum. flg$

I'll give YOU the benefit of the doubt, that YOU think that this ONE lonely post got locked up, but I gotta tell ya there are 99 others with the same "flavor" that didn't. And since this was going in that same direction I personally asked Wolf to intervene. BECAUSE I'M TIRED OF CATS (I'm guilty myself) JUMPING INTO POSTS THAT HAVE NOTHING, NADA, ZIP, ZERO, ZILCH TO DO WITH THEM!!! mgngcrz

The post in question was about "improving the TTQB." IT HAD NOTHING, NADA, ZIP, ZERO, ZILCH TO DO WITH ..... But it went down an alley that most of us are tired of going down. I know you know what I mean. Be cool and lay off the "c" word. This ain't Miggle by a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG stretch. ppls$


Keep to the topic and say what you gotta say in a CHRISTIAN manner. If you can't or won't say it in Church or in front of your Pastor, Priest, Big Momma, Nana or my 16-month-old baby girl, then don't say it here! ;)

I read something where a little boy asked his Mom, "Why do people cuss and swear and say bad things?" She said, "Because they lack the vocabulary to say things the way they're supposed to be said." Break out the dictionary and thesaurus and learn how to get your point across without the bad talk. After all...

IT'S JUST A TOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Previous opening line was too harsh. Sorry, JJ. thmbsp$

Jimbo well said bro...
 

...There is only a couple of folks in this community that cause a bunch of friction. This has to be noticed by the high powers of this board. It is constant criticism by these individuals that fuel the fire everytime they open their mouths. I for one have said it that I will confront the peasants in person and will leave it there.

I think that is disrespectful to put someone else's name in a post and try to drag them trough the mud. In saying that I have come to ignore these individuals until our day of reckoning. I know uncle Reg has told me to stand down but I can't, it is just the lil hoodster in me that has to get at them one on one.

I am CHRISTIAN folk but I have always hated the ones that jaw-jacked on the sideline and the ones that rah-rahed for them. Me myself I roll solo wit all my words of ebonics and ignorance, but never once dragging folks into a post like I could so easily do now. With that said you know who you are and what you stand for. Go to itunes and download the song, "We're Back", off the DMX album Grand Champ!!! Listen to it right at the end and DMX will tell you what you are!!!! Or better yet go to iTunes and listen to number 13 on the 2001 album from Dre. You don't even have to listen to it, just look at the title of the song!!!!!!

...another post about to go sour...the disease is already running its course...

what I predict is that this thread will be pushed as absoultely close to the line as possible. The fear of suspension from the board and/or having a thread closed is just enough to keep people honest but after the way things have been going, this post is also headed for the gutter.

WEIRDWOLF. Keep doing what you have to do to keep people from going over the line, making a fool of themselves, and making a mockery out of our hobby and our chat board. We must understand that there are some people in the world who simply thrive on confusion and due to their idiots mentality have no respect for the written word whatsoever.

EF is on life support as it stands today and it is those creative individuals providing the CPR that are mostly being attacked by others or doing the attacking. A strange phenomena indeed.

Maybe all of this is about something easier to analyze like male pride, egoism, and the right to influence what others think and do. Thus you have leaders, followers, cronies, and bystanders. The bystanders should have the benefit of having the garbage filtered out so they don't have to read it.

If this continues I'm leaving for good.

man this is funny!!
 

I disagree with the post being taken down that it!! Is gone from me just not liking the censorship to being bad and evil!We can agree and disagree with out prejudice!!!Its not personal on no one just how I feel but we should let it go!! Thanks though for the topic or disscussing with me!! Jim Jacksonlffng$

Hey guys, I'm glad this post hasn't been pulled because I just wanted to say something. First of all, everything that's been said so far, Let It Go. Seriously let's start this year off right.

Secondly, you don't have to go very far(Miggle website)to see what happens after all the backbiting starts.

I know that compared to years ago, there are a lot of us now. If you think about it though, we are a small group. In groups like ours, we have to be careful not to become too inwardly focused. It's important to become more outreach focused. This keeps the hobby refreshing and moving forward. It may sound silly, but not all in-house discussions are good for the hobby.

Use your post to draw in newbies, to teach, and to motivate others. If you don't think that will happen, don't post it. Also, don't post on topics that you feel are not growing the hobby. It's your choice. Reach out. Grow your leagues. Grow the hobby. Drop the arguments, they are not motivating anyone. I for one and looking forward to 2008 MFL. Also, if you are thinking of leaving, please don't. We need your positive vibes! thmbsp$

Greetings gentleman. To begin with I hope that all of you and your families had a nice Christmas and that you all have a safe, healthy, and prosperous 2008.

This is the first time that I have ever responded to such a post so here is my take on the question. First of all this is simply a hobby and we need not get carried away. There are really much more things in life to be concerned with. In my eyes it is really a combination of both. It can be seen as a toy that when played and tweaked can become a game. I could be wrong but many, if not most, of us got our first boardgame as children for Christmas. We saw it as a toy and tweaked it to be like the games that we saw on Saturday and Sunday. At least that is what I did and still do. I am nothing but a big kid and like to have FUN when playing. More so this toy/game has allowed me to have FUN, FELLOWSHIP, and meet people who more than likely will be FRIENDS for life. As we all know the Raiders have a saying and it is simply "JUST WIN BABY". Whatever definition people in the hobby decide on is really not important. What I feel is most important is simply "JUST PLAY BABY".

Coach J

Ok, I wasn't going to say anything at all about all of this, but instead I thought I'd give my impression of everything. Believe it or not, I actually think I understand where AB is coming from. :eek: Here goes....

There are a few different deffinitions of what a toy is. Most relate toys to a devise that is used for a childs amusment. This is where the trouble starts. There are a few guys who don't want MF being equated to something that is intended for children. Rather, they want it being associated with adults instead. Yes, technically, it is a toy. Pure and simple. So are trains, playing cards and dice. If you give a child any of these, then they would play with them and amuse themselves. Therefore, they are toys.

But wait a moment, there are thousands guys, many well over 40, 50 or 60 years old, that collect trains. They build elaborate sets in their basements, complete with tunnels, roads, bridges etc. Model Railroading has a very large following. How do you think they feel about it? I'm sure they would tell you that it is a hobby, and would probably feel offended if you told them that they are playing with toys. The same would more than likely hold true for Poker players or couple playing Bridge. Next time you go to a casino, see how the people there react when you tell them that they are playing with toys.

Personally, I don't like it when people refer to MF as toys. I think the game, or hobby, whichever you prefer, has elevated itself above that level. Somewhere, in some point in time, games or objects become something more than just toys. They become a hobby. Cards, trains, pool, air hockey, Warhammer, RC cars and planes..... These are all just toys, but nobody refers to them as such. They have evolved and grown into something more than that. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a word to describe it.

I think this is what AB was trying to convey, that MF has evolved into something that is on a higher level than what it was 30 years ago, (I know his system of playing certainly is) and I think he is right. Look at what is out there, the custom boards, the detail of the players, stadiums, etc. These are not intended for children, rather they are for adults who have an appreciation for something that is more sophisticated than a simple toy. What we need is a new word, something that would describe an object that may have started out as a toy, but has grown into something that adults use more than children. Sort of like model railroading has. :cool:

** This is just my opinion. I know my opinion doesn't amount to a hill of beans in this wacked out world, though I wish it would. Bean prices are about to jump and a hill of them would amount to a small fortune of which I could use every bit of.**

Every one has one
 

The great thing about this argument is that everybody has an opinion. I have never said otherwise. I do take offense when someone tells me what I think I should think. Or what I should consider a toy. It's my opinion.

Ravenna Al, I have much love and respect for you and your opinion. I may get offended if someone calls it a toy. I don't know. I do respect what you have to say when you put it in that way.

To me, it is a toy. To me it's a game. And then it's a hobby. Heck, I think a corvette is a toy. It's a diversion too. So to me, anything that takes my mind off the seriousness of life is classified as a toy. But that's just my definition of toy. I think school and education has facets of being toys. It's challenging. It's a diversion. It takes my mind off stressful things. But that's my definition.

What I have issues with is when anybody tries to railroad me into thinking something other than what I may want to think. I make one comment on a word and how I defined it. That's all I did. I never asked anyone else to define it in that way. That's just how I view MF.

Even when I go out and give demonstrations, I don't mind much if people consider it as a toy. Their views change when I show them how I can make the players do what I want them to. When I can show them actual plays being ran. When I can show them I can kick from 60 yards out. When the magic of the stadium is thrust upon them. When I show them how intense we get in playing this game. Then, the respect level for the game goes up ten-fold.

Those things lend credibility to what we do and make it very easy to recruit locally and nationally. Guys know I am crazy! They know I love to have fun! They know I live in Never Neverland. And some come here just to be a part of that fantasy world. Whether they think it is a toy or not, that's their opinion. All I provide them with is an avenue to be a kid again in my land of toys.

Reg

Whoa Nelly And Rr And Rj.
 

Al interpreted AB's statements to a tee! After much debate, AB and I decided that since we BOTH get in trouble for rushing into posts that don't pertain to us, we'll chill until we can express ourselves without emotional attachments.

RR: I don't think he was slamming "RR" as much as he was asking "why nobody had a beef" when you called it a toy, but everyone had issue with him classifying his style as chess compared to checkers a while back - INCLUDING MYSELF!!! mgngcrz No need to readdress that topic, just wanted to clear the name dragging part up. I scanned thru that entire thread and that's what I interpreted as well as what he and I talked about. That was it.

RJ: ANSWER YOUR PHONE, BRAH!!! HIT ME BACK: 773-412-7789. sntht$

Life is too short guys. I can't wait for Canton!!! ppls$

I just want to commend everyone. This post had the potential to really go South but everyone has handled themselves exceptionally and have really turned this around in a positive direction. This is what community is...we don't always agree and we don't have to. Arguements can break out but in the end we recognize the value of the other people and place the friendship and the community above the need to win or be right. Agreeing to disagree can sometimes be the end result and that is a good thing because we can still face that person with whom we disagreed when the time comes for us to share the same physical space.

As for Jimmie and I and our discussion over censorship it was handled to day with a great conversation by phone. It was a real joy visiting with him and if you are in Detroit it sounds like his Toy Collectibles Store is a definite stop before heading home. He is doing alot to promote the hobby and I believe I have made a new friend in this hobby.

Wlf, it's good to hear...
 

you and Jimmie got a chance to talk. Jim's been one of those guys that have been there from day one. Him, Dirk Thomas, Jon Thomas, Frank Johnson, Edgar Downs, and myself use to do a lot of barnstorming through the plains with the Landsmans "back in the day" promoting this game.

Jim along with his wife, Annette were some of the first ones to express their love of the hobby with a magazine called "Outside the Lines". It rivaled the Klingbeil's "In the Zone" and my magazine called "Stadiumtalk".

These were the first forms of communications to try to enlighten the general public about the game of miniature football. So he's got some good stories to share about his perspective of what happened in the mid 90's regarding the game.

Plus Jim's the type of guy that he'll be your friend for life. Jack and I have not missed a week since the mid 90's of not talking to each other on the telephone. So you've just got yourself a new friend Wolf.

Reg

Yep Reg, It was an honor to visit with him. We also talked about transcribing all the old publications into digital format and putting them up in an archive on the MFCA site. I would love to get yours and Klingbiels also. I had no idea before talking to Jim, that there were this many paper publications on the hobby early on. These definetly need to be stored and brought back to life in the archive.

Wow
 

I am glad that I missed the debate......


As for our future, please refain from using the word "toy" when we reference our hobby because we have moved up from there a long time ago.

thmbsp$ thmbsp$

K-LO