The funny thing about EF and a players greatness...
 

I came up with this as I read the post regarding the "insanity of Vincanity Peatros" as he pounded away on a guy who was a pretty strong coach and had a pretty strong team himself.

We all wonder how one may accumulate those kind of stats, we even question the legitamcy of the rules, the player and the opponent. We find it tough to give credit when credit is due because the story may sound unbelievable. But think of it this way...Would you have believed that Memphis would have beaten Texas in the elite 8 by 20 points? If someone called you during the first half of the Final Four and told you that Kansas was up by almost 30 points over UNC in the 1st half would you have believed them? Probably not. We are a "must see it with our own eyes" society. Had many believed Noah and got on that Ark when he said the floods were coming they would have been a lot better of. Lol (Hardly a comparison but you get my point).

I know we all want to see Mr. Vince. Frankly, I do myself and can't wait for the day! I have a burning drive to play this guy that everyone says is the best. However, I do believe what people say about him. I have no reason not to. It doesn't hurt me either way to believe it or not.

When a player is considered great one always questions the era in which he played. Would M.J. still be the best today in the era of showtime and the crossover? Would Kobe in his prime dominate M.J.? The truth is they are both great regardless of the era and/or what coast they play on. Vince will be great win, lose, or draw should he come east. Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone & Stockton all fell victim to M.J. but they are all great players. A loss will not tarnish a thing that Vince has accomplished nor will a loss tarnish anything that Norbert, myself, DC, Reg. Rutledge, Lavell Shelton has accomplished.

We all are asking Vince to come to the east coast...I'm sure he'd like to get a few of you in his back yard. Lol. I'm not defending Vince by any means. I don't even know the guy. I just see things from a very nuetral perspective. However, I do love the debate. I love it! I just wish that we would debate topics more rather than criticize, it would lead to much better message board rhetoric.

Mike Robertson

a member of the band
 

Mike,

You are surely a member of the band. The band of brother coaches that is. You don't make any effort at blowing your own horn so it is so far above the sound of the rest of us that we don't have harmony. You make every effort in all you say to make our sound more appealing to the ear. Some guys would rather stand on the stage and do solo's. Not a problem for me personally and God bless them but this hobby and the coaches in it have given me a new zest for personal enjoyment after years of personal heartache. It may just mean something different to me then personal conquest. I look forward to just being around the other coaches. That is special to many of us.

Ed

Mike " You Are So Right "
 

When vince got here and posted his stats im sure many coaches said to themselve's (YEAH RIGHT). That's just vince exaggerating on how good he is.
BUT NOW, you have a coach who not only heard about him but went and played him. That coach (bluesman) was nice enough to come here a report back to us his vince peatro's findings. he has confirmed what vince has been saying all along. AND, PUT TO BED THE WHOLE "BUT VINCE PLAY'S WITH BOILED BASES" ROUTINE. Vince told me over the phone he can tweek bases stronger than he can boil bases. A 65 YARD PLOWING AND BLUESMAN SAID HE'S THE REAL DEAL HOLYFIELD.

other coaches have said the same thing bluesman said, WHAT DO YOU WANT VINCE TO DO TO PROVE ANYTHING TO THE EF WORLD. The guy know's how to tweek strong bases. He accumulate's so many stat's because he shuts you down (3 and out ) and get's the ball back right away. I give credit where credit is due to any coach who is unique. I say i never seen anyone like MIKE ROBERTSON and have to hear a song and a dance later.

I feel we should just enjoy any coach who is good enough that we can learn something form to make ourselve's better. I don't think coaches need to take it personal(not any one paticular coach) where they feel they need to test this one or that one, just tip your hat. Im sure you have unique skills also.

Everyone cant be in tbe movie, some have to go and see it.


MANTARAYDRE

I'm just having fun...
 

I, like many in the hobby, am just having fun. We've heard forever about the exploits of Mr. Peatros yet he remains as elusive to most of the tournaments as a Corporal Tuttle. Personally I think it'd be hilarious if he was just a guy that the west coast made up...he's probably real...but many of us won't know.

I've been honored to play and meet many of the hobby's greats. How would I fare against Vince...who knows? I've held my own against most of the top competition and would love the opportunity to play against any great coach.

I reply simply because I get tired of hearing about the basketball guys who are playground legends and "better than Jordan." Personally, nobody has to leave the playground to play against anyone (it's their choice)...but until then they'll be just a playground legend in my mind and we'll keep hailing appropriate tribute to the Jordans, Raidermans, Revels, Smiths, Pratts, Chalmers, Hardamons, Rutledges, Robinsons, Turners, Hutsons, Bells, Downs, Lomaxes, Baxters, Grecos, Diamonds, Davises, Klingbeils, and possibly even Ruesinks of the world (that list can be much bigger).

MplsTom...
 

Contrary to your belief I agree with you. It makes it tough to compare Vince to the other greats if he hadn't played against the other greats just as it is tough to compare Kobe to Jordan. My post wasn't meant to defend Peatros by any means it was more to try and get guys to debate the topic instead of criticizing Peatros. I myself for one would like to know why someone considers Peatros the best, I would also like to know why others consider other coaches the best. Give me something with substance. I could use a good scouting report! Lol

Dang, I didn't make that list Tom
 

But I'm not known for playing.................. right???

I use to be a playground legend in basketball tho! Mike, I use to play horse for money!!!! Man, I got a mean bank shot!

Corey

Corey...
 

Horse for money? I've seen your game! You must have been broke a lot growing up? Lol. Bank Shot is right, Your opponent went straight to the bank off of your jump shot. Wish I had grew up in Philly with ya. I could have got them Jordan's I always wanted growing up.:rtfl:

too much
 

:rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl:

Mr. National
 

CorEy...you know by now you are a list unto yourself.

The list was illustrative not exclusive...

Love the H-O-R-S-E comment and Mike I do agree with where you are coming from. I'll respond to it a bit later but thanks for the debate.

Tom

Well Alright!
 

" DOWNS"? I play my first tourney at Buzzball, lose in the first round and Tom is listing me as one of the greats?thmbsp$ WOW! i sure must have impressed someone. (this just in) oh, sorry, you meant "Edgar Downs". ahhh, that makes more sense. sorry about that. got caught up again in thinking the world revolves around just me.:D

It would be funny if Vince was some made up dude on the west coast :rtfl: :rtfl: .

Greatness
 

What is greatness...I'm going to remove the emotion around the topic and just talk about "on the field." In sports, there can be some jerks who are indeed great players. Those players wouldn't make a "hall of fame" in my book, but they are great players.

The more I thought about it, the more it comes down to "wins versus quality opponents and on big stages."

Tim Gallwey, in his book "The Inner Game of Winning" tells the reader that he can provide the secret to winning forever. "Never play anyone near as good as you." That alone tells us that there is something inside most of us that cares more for the challenge and competition than the win.

As for what do the great coaches do...it varies, just as it does in the NFL. Sometimes you have teams with great offenses. Some have complex playbooks. Some have stifling defenses. Some grind it out. Some have simple schemes that they execute to perfection.

The same really holds true in our hobby. The best passer may not win every game because he runs into a guy who can kill plays and leave him with too few plays to score. The best defense may run into an offense that matches up with him well, etc.

Overall, in a game, though, I would say that a great player tends to see all 11 players in concert. They notice the opponents 11 players and not just the guy who made the tackle and catch. They process and they adjust continually. Or, if you aren't stopping their one-trick, they stay with it until you do.

The other common trait is usually, "Know Thy Men." They don't need the strongest team, fastest guys, or to be the best passer. If they know what their player is going to do 90% of the time, it allows for plays to develop and chances to be taken.

Good question, and I too enjoy the debate.

Does one loose his greatness if he looses a game?
 

In my opinion, greatness can not be solely measured by wins or losses or stats that you produce or even championship trophies that you have. Sometimes, the greatest or best coach does not win and the question I ask is "Does one loose his greatness if he looses a game?"

I have lost 2 DFW titles based on "The Box". I have went to 7 Championship games and won 3. I have lost to Michael Robertson in the BAMA Blast title game 55-49. I have lost to Vince Peatros in the Duel in the Desert Championship 14-12. I lost to Brian Healey as the Number 1 seed in the SWB in double overtime 7-0. But because you loose, you wonder where your legacy may be (if you play the game for personal praise). Many things contribute to winning and losing for me. For me, yes I want to win, but it is not the most important goal.

I see guys who miss what I think is most important about the game, the fellowship. One of the best coaches I have ever seen, Adrian Baxter, came to Texas and played in the Shootout and beat one of the best under the rule system, Don Hudson in 2006. Baxter then lost to DeWone McDaniel in the semifinal round. But to me, I saw Adrian is one of the greatest minds in the game, able to compete and to also be gracious even in defeat. That said more to me than whether or not he won. Just because of how his demeanor was, I knew this was a guy I would love in ANY league I was in!

Everyone knows I love hype! Back in 1995, no one had ever heard of Vince Peatros. He was a blip on the radar like most of us. After he won, I let it be known that Vince won the Shootout in convincing fashion. I later reported that Vince had used boiled bases. One coach said "Reg, you may have created Frankenstein. You may have created a monster". In many respects, I think I did Vince a dis-service. In two ways: (1) Vince did stay within the context of the rules. He was ahead of his time. I penalized him for that. That was wrong. (2) I may have over-hyped Vince. While it made Vince larger than life, it also put undue pressure on him to "show everyone he was great". By doing that, it made people hate him who never even met the man.

I know Vince can be a Butt-hole from time-to-time. He will even tell you that. But Vince knows he can loose just like anyone else. I don't even like defending Vince in this manner. But I am defending not him but what can be termed greatness. Guys like Vince, Mike, Wally Jabs, K-Lo, Old School, and many, many others can be termed "Great" because they've put in the time to excel and master their hobby. You can call these guys up and they can talk very knowledgeable on any topic in miniature football.

Don "Old School" Smith has won many titles but does not get to play that much anymore. But I know Don probably feels that "I am in a no win situation. If I win, well I am suppose to win. But if I loose, well see, he's not as good as we thought he was". What a terrible pressure placed on guys who are passion about the game and just want to play!

I feel a great deal of frustration, even in the DFW, when I know I could probably have won a game but because of all the ambassador things I do, I can never fully compete equally. Then guys who beat you really think it was fair and equitable in how they won. Yeah, they may say "We did not ask for all the pomp and circumstances that Reg is providing" but at the end of the day, that is why they are in the league. Because of the efforts of Reg. You just wished that once, you were able to prepare evenly like they did and it would not be close! That's the frustrations of being an ambassador to the game.

So when the "so-called" great come and play in your league or tournament, is it right to expect them to be great all the time? Do that put too much pressure on them just to play the game? I really think that is a reason many may stay home, because of the un-necessary pressures to perform.

I think everybody in this game is great! If you play the game and contribute to the success of this game, you have done great things in this game. I don't think you can fairly judge the greatness of a coach because of the various rules sets. Heck, I would suck at Rules 2000 and Pass Placement. I may struggle in the Great Lakes format. Or in the Beltsville or Philly League. But would that make a coach any less great or what have you?

I recruit what many think are "the best coaches in the game" but really, I recruit what I think are "the guys who are best able to handle loosing". Heck, I already think they are great guys but its more important for these guys to know that in any given game, they can lose just like the rest of us.

I think we would do ourselves well to see past this great thing and see what's in the person. He does not have to win all the time to be great in my book (and my book is not that complicated of a read).

Reg

EF Greatness
 

Reg, your thoughts are articulated very well in your post. I once heard someone describe a great athlete as "a good person playing well".

When I tried to answer Mike's question about greatness, I did take that out of the equation to look strictly at greatness on the field. In doing so, guys can be a bit of a butt-hole but still be a great EF player in the same way that Barry Bonds or some of the legendary superstars may not always be our favorite people. They wouldn't be great for the hobby, they wouldn't be people I'd want to hang with, or great role models, but their performance on the field is just that...a great performance on the field.

I like your hype...it's a fun thing to have a guy or two like that in the hobby. You put your passion and money where your mouth is. I know what it is like to be ambassador and competitor...to be honest I've competed much better the last few years when I've toned down the tournament organizing, etc.

Do people lose their greatness when they don't place well? I suppose in a way somewhat. Depends on if it is a pattern. Tiger Woods doesn't win half the majors he enters, yet he is still the best golfer by a long stretch. He loves the competition and is willing to put himself on the line and is usually "there on Sunday" with at least a shot.

Your point on Baxter is well taken. I've always considered Adrian a superb coach who has adapted to many rule sets and competed at a high level. I will always say that he is my nemesis (in a good way) as he was beaten soundly the first time we've played and he's adjusted and has beaten me the last 4 times we've played, including 2 finals.

As for the no-win situation...I know where you're coming from. The most visual example I can think of is from the movie "Best of Times" where the high school legend QB Reno Hightower is talking to his teammate Jack. When Jack reminds him of the 6 TD passes he threw vs Porterville he said, "Do you know how many TD passes I threw against Porterville...3...heck, next year it'll probably be 7...I get better with age." Later in the reunion of the players, the guys call Reno over and say, "Hey Reno, we were just talking about the 7 TD passes you threw against Porterville."

I do feel like some in this hobby have this weight upon them. I wish they didn't. One of my favorite EF moments was when Mark Klingbeil came up to compete in Minneapolis at our charity event. He was a legend and hadn't really suited up in recent times. He was beaten in the second round by Raiderman and probably returned to mortal status a bit more when he lost an early round Miggle game the next year.

To me, I was just happy, though, to see him on the board and to get to meet him. A hall of fame baseball player fails between 6 and 7 times out of 10 when they're at bat. I love seeing top coaches compete and putting it all out there. Sometimes they're the windshield and sometimes they're the bug, but at least they are in the arena competing and making everyone else better.

There are many ways that people improve the hobby that have nothing to do with playing a game and those people are indeed great too...but when it comes down to objectively playing the game it's sure fun to watch the great ones regardless of their finish.

What I Am Concerned About
 

No harm is done when we lose; there is no shame in losing. Winning and losing is a fact of life.

If Vince lost a game to another coach, I wouldn’t question his ability to play in this hobby.

What I would expect from Vince is the big numbers that he claims. If he comes out of a game with “normal” numbers, such as, 20 completions of 30 attempts for 300 to about 330 yards, 3 or 4 TDs, then I would question those astronomical stats that he claims. His stats put him at 564.29 yds a game. I don’t care if he wins or loses.

Maurice

The Electric Coach

Now this is a healthy debate...
 

My kind of party! I agree with you pop that greatness should be measured by more than just wins and losses. Dick Vitale just made the basketball hall of fame as an ambassador & enthusiast of the game, not as a coach or player and as we all no college basketball just would not be the same without Dickey V. So wins & losses only effect your legacy if playing is all you brought to the hobby. Innovators & ambassadors such as yourself, Don Smith, Norbert, Geno, Mike Beal & Beenutt, the Klingbeils and all others who assist in the revolutionization of the hobby will be considered legendary greats of the game because of what you have done to inspire, create, & keep alive in what just a few shorts years ago was on the brink of extinction. You guys have worked magic to keep this hobby alive. We appreciate you all for that!

However, there is one thing that I do disagree with you on. A humble loss in my opinion does not make you a great coach. An 0-15 season for 10 years straight yet humble in defeat does not translate into greatness in my opinion. However, acknowledging a loss and being humble in the defeat is gracious and shows great character & sportsmanship. I enjoy hanging around the men and woman who are not poor sports in defeat.

As for performing under pressure and people staying home when called on the tournament carpet.. I will just say this...many travel to just play, being a part of the festivities and meeting new people is a bonus. In reverse many people travel to meet the "greats" that have become friends and in most cases like family in the hobby and playing is just the bonus. I petition for an event that is all about fellowship. No EFL games played at all. Just art work, exhibits, teams & figures, new innovative ideas, etc. So that all who travel to see their great friends in the hobby may do so without the pressures of playing and performing and being caught up in the rhetoric of the matchups and who's great and why one travels in the first place because at this one event we will all know why we are there!

Thread
 

I think that is what the MFCA convention in Canton is all about and that is why they chose to not have a tournament there.

It will be interesting to see what kind of turnout that generates. I'll be honest, living in Minnesota we pack everything into about 13 weekends in summer (because the weather is doggy-doo otherwise). I'm limited to 2 or 3 events a year because of family time, etc.

If I had unlimited time I would be at every event because I know what it takes to put one on and I want to meet people and support the hobby. However, being limited to 2 or 3 each year, I do really enjoy competing and probably more I enjoy preparing. I fully support the idea of a convention and have donated accordingly but the truth is, when given the opportunity to compete, I will choose that.

Fellowship and friendships are golden...but I find I also build special bonds with people when I'm not on the board and sometimes friendships become deeper when we've gone toe-to-toe. That's just me and many personalities are different. We all get different things out of this hobby and we all bring different things to the hobby.

MFCA Canton Meeting
 

Tom,

I know I will not be in attendance at the Canton thing. But I do try to make it a point of supporting functions that have supported what we do here in Texas. While I am just one person, it is always important to get as many as you can out to an event. You never know what the presence of one person may have in bringing others out to an event.

But I promised myself that I would not participate in NFL-sponsored events, at least, not in the near future. I have my reasons.

But if you want to see an event where guys definitely have shown a great deal of fellowship, I witnessed it first hand at the Sea Wall Brawl. And we always open our doors to anyone wanting to come play miniature football, in the name of fellowship.

I definitely hope the Canton thing is good. But that alone should not be an indicator as to the interest level in the game or the camaraderie around the game.

And I know you don;t think that. I am just bringing another point to light that is often overlooked.

Reg

Reg
 

I really hope that the MFCA event in Canton goes well. I know the guys have put a ton of work into bringing the MFCA to the level it is at now and they are definitely to be commended. I think it will be a great event.

As for Seawall, I definitely want to get out there and play. Don and DC Smith were kind enough to support the Minneapolis Charity events with their attendence the first couple of years and I definitely want to meet some guys that I haven't had a chance to break bread with. Summer is a really tough time for me as it always seems as if we have some camp or kid thing going on. That being said, I think if I don't get out there in 2008, I will definitely be there in 2009.

I do want to clarify one thing. The MFCA convention is not sponsored by the NFL in any way. The group PFUFA, Pro Football's Ultimate Fans Association is also not connected to the NFL or they would probably be called the NFL Ultimate Fans. They have a working relationship with the HOF but again there is no formal connection. The United Way event we are doing is also not connected to the NFL. The MFCA event is solely run and organized by the MFCA and has no connections beyond being in Canton on the same weekend that the HOF Inductions is happening.

Also, there is a competition happening. Not like most tourneys but if you are a competitor there will be plenty to compete for. Please double check the sticky post for rules. This is a points tourney as is explained in the sticky post. There will be winners and losers and fellowship as in most events as well as the national finals skills competition and a customizing/paint contest display and competition and a team region champion.

I just don't want people to start thinking that we are not playing EF/MF when we are there or that we are under some kind of higher authority.

Thanks for the clarification
 

Thanks Wolf

What about me? What about Tron?
 

'am I not merciful!!!

Never before in the history of man has there ever been anyone like Tron!
Style and Grace with a frown on my face! I'm smooth and mello. A real calm fellow! So you don't like my game, but my teams sure look SWEEEEEETTT!!!:mad: Tron out!

Funny
 

Too funny Tron...the list was illustrative, not exclusive. I used it to make a point and not list out the only "elite" coaches in the hobby. I just started grab bagging some names of guys that popped into my head as winning titles or getting to finals. I missed guys like Beenutt, Dunagan and many others.