Holding Receivers At The Los "how Did This Start ?
 

THIS IS JUST A FRIENDLY QUESTION THAT'S PROBABLY DEBATEABLE.


How did holding the receivers at the line of scrimmage come to pass.
Is this just a strategy amongst various defenses ?
Alot of coaches say they can't get their receivers open and i was wondering is that part of a coaches overall gameplan. Realistically, in any NFL or college football game you never see a defensive back put a receiver in a bearhug and hold him until the lineman or linebackers get a sack ! Isn't that kind of what we are doing. Im just wondering why in many leagues receivers are not being let go and run a precise pattern. The defensive backs can run with him while others can run over and help out. If using the TDQ, you may have to throw into serious traffic.

When the receiver and db are at the line playing push me and i'll push you back, if the receiver gets free that db is out of the play headed towards his endzone.

SO IM JUST CURIOUS ON HOW THIS STARTED FROM YEARS GONE BY. MAYBE MANY MOONS AGO WHEN PLAYING IF YOU SAW A PLAYER BEING LINED UP IT WAS OUT OF INSTINCT TO PUT SOMEONE RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM.

It actually is a form of defensive holding (visualize deon sanders hugging drew pearson at the line of scrimmage and not letting go)

LET ME KNOW IF THIS IS JUST PART OF YOUR OVERALL STRATEGY, IT'S FINE IF IT IS. IM JUST CURIOUS ON THIS.


MANTARAYDRE

simple but true
 

Dre,

"holding" a WR at the line has been around a long time.... it is termed "bump and run" by most. defense lines up the CB 'head up' on the Wr and what happens-happens....

With the invention of the cover corners aka guys with hands and arms across the front of the base, holding has taken on a new term.

If you add the fact that most coaches that use these figures, they are putting them on the strongest (TTC) base they can find that can run. Now you have CB that act like linemen and maul WR so that no one gets open except the RB that clears this traffic.

I don't really use these figures on the outside, but when I do I try to use only rookie bases....it keeps the playing field level in my opinion.

.02

k-lo

The "Problem"
 

This holding that we see on the board exists due to the nature of the hobby. We must remember that our teams aren’t real people. They are fixed figures that move as a result of the base that they stand on. The figures can’t continuously use their hands to get out of a block, to protect or to break out of coverage.

In the traditional style of play, the cover corner can be beat. A coach must use the right figure and base to do so.

If you want to stop the figures from grabbing one another, you will have to modify the game. In that, you will have to play under less traditional rules. There are two styles of play that can fix this “problem”. One of those styles is the divider board. Since neither coach can see where the other is lining up, the defense won’t be able to line up the corners directly in front of the receivers. That alone will get your receivers open more often. The other style of play is the MPFL style. In that style, you will be able to stop the board and make adjustments to your receivers and other personnel on the board. This style will get your receivers open as well.

Maurice

The Electric Coach

not quite true
 

Electric Coach, in the divider style, you can adjust on any players (wr/TE) that are angled once the divider comes up...you are allowed to reposition the CB, if you want, to the angle of the WR. If the offense lines up straight than you do not get this adjustment.

otherwise, you're right about the "right base and figure" for the WR position.

I Believe the Right Athletes Makes it Impossible
 

On every play, do you really think that the receiver gets a clean release off the line of scrimmage? You show me a team that allows the receiver to run freely and I show you a team that will get carved up 60-0!

Andre, I think this is one of those debates that rings of bringing crutches into the game. I know in the DFW League, the cover corner was invented at my house back in 1996. I was brainstorming ways of stopping one of the great passers in the league, Don Hudson. He had torched me in previous games with receivers running freely down the field.

So I began to watch great corners like Lester Hayes and Deon Sanders and the positioning and arm movement that they had at the line of scrimmage. I developed corners according to this style.

The first corner was called the cover corner. He was created in a way of hitting a wide receiver at the line of scrimmage. Releasing and then turning and running with the receiver. It happens more than 80% of the time. Then like so many things that are taken from my house without permission, corners were created in a grab and clutch technique unlike the ones I created. But the genesis of the cover corner have a specific part of the base it should be placed on and a certain width between the arms which disallow for holding. Therefore, my covers don't hold. They run and release.

Another type of corner I invented 3 years ago is the "shutdown" corner. He is very physical. He does not hold but instead he picks a player up at the line of scrimmage and throws him to the ground. Now that's not my fault if my defensive player is more physical than your WR?

You have to have WR's who bring that physicality to the game. That's where many do not understand the physics of the game, what makes a receiver able to get off the line of scrimmage. If you watch the DFW Super Bowl, under one of the most physical type of rulesets, on every play receivers were open in that game. Both teams had physical corners but holding was never an issue. And they got off more than 90 plays in the game!

I think many times because games are governed by plays instead of time, you just want your man to get open and an easy pass. That's why some leagues will not allow QBs to throw to engaged receivers. But corners jockey with WRs throughout the course of a game.

If you want to blame anyone for that, blame it on the genesis of the cover corner. However, as I stated the cover corner that comes out of my production are definitely chuck, turn and run with players.

Reg

reg "a you tube moment'
 

Reg,


Im sure coasches are going to want and see this chuck and turn in action.
sounds like a you tube moment. Im sure you trained your players to do it but i've never seen a DB turn and run with the receiver. he alway's goes straight ahead or out of bounds out of the play to make a play. I can see coaches having there db's lineup along side the receivers running in the same direction and having them angled to knock the receiver off course within a certain amount yards (7 to 10 yards i guess).


MANTARAYDRE

I hate INTENTIONAL holding...
 

My personal opinion is that the buzzball o-line sometimes have arms that are just slightly too wide apart and therefore they hold more than they should. I like the shootout rules on this subject, arms forward figures must have a width of less than 1/4" to play corner. I'm of Reg's school, I'm designing my corners to give a hard chuck and then turn and run to be able to cover a deep 1/3 of the field, or else bump and then look into the backfield to provide run support. I don't intentionally hold.

Also rule sets that allow the addition of pro line and boat bases and CUSTOM wide recievers allow for you to design "athletes" (base + figure) that are really hard to hold. For non-custom recievers, the buzzball WR1 is great in that it doesn't get tangled up too much.

Lastly, I would think that any rules that allow an audible of the WR to angle makes it much harder for the defense to simply lineup and try to hold. This is not allowed in the shootout rules. Reg, could you share your experience of why the angled reciever audible is not necessary in the shootout rules. My particular concern is more the intentional holding issue rather than the defense being able to play head on every time if they want.

Joe

bump and run.
 

Bump and run is not the same as holding. I think when you line your corner
in front of the reciever and the board comes on ,they hit head up some stay in front
of the reciever and some recievers slide off depending on the tweak.Thats bump and run to me .Cover corners grabb and push for the duration of the
play thats not realistic.It does make you think about how to beat a cover
corner and the from my expierience theres only a few things you can do.
Beat the db with a faster base by angling them or create a reciever that
cant be grabbed.Thats what i did the cover corner is here to stay some
people even stretch the arms out further than they originally come.So with
being said you must evolve to beat it. Just my 2cents

'Dre and Michigan Joe
 

'Dre,

One of the reasons I stopped using the cover corner on my teams were because they gave up too many big plays. They would chuck at the line, release, and then turn and run. I had that video out there on Youtube. I even use to have it in introduction footages of games. But it's like ONE2WATCH stated, I had to evolve to beat the receivers torching me even in the cover corner athletes that I created. Thus, the shutdown corner was introduced.

The tools are out there. I even show how to create these type of players in some of my customizing DVD. I will have to create a cover corner and just show him in that technique.

But the Shutdown corner can jam at the line of scrimmage. That's his physical nature. Again, it's about understanding the physics as to why he is so devastating. But that's when you introduce lateral receivers who still manage to get off the line of scrimmage by going laterally and then swinging up field. It works, believe me! Then the defensive coach is not so confident in putting that CB straight up at the line of scrimmage.

I watch a lot of college football, especially Tennessee. The VOLS frustrate me so much because they run more of zone coverages, allowing the WRs to freely release off the line of scrimmage. The WR runs 10 yards, do a flag route toward out-of-bounds and the QB throws him the ball for an easy first down. I see them even do it towards the goal line. An easy score for the other team. As a defensive mind, you are so frustrated with that type of technique being employed by teams. You're telling me, you want that same technique employed in miniature football. Spurrier has beaten Tennessee many times by throwing the ball because we play 10 yards off the receiver, scared that the receiver is gonna get deep. I am an aggressive minded coach, willing to take chances and I would never allow anyone to take away my aggressive nature.

I think if leagues allowed for QBs to throw to engaged receivers, that would be a moot point. A lot of this comes from the frustrations of not much offensive progression in various league's games. But if those leagues allowed for the WR to still have the chance to catch the ball, it would not be much of an issue.

Plus, the all to infrequent interceptions in leagues would go up and allow the defensive team to have two good things happen (incompletions and interceptions) and the offense, one good thing (completion).

It may be easier to find one of my old cover corners and show what happens between a reciever and corner. A lot has to do with the base. If an athlete (figure + base) has the wrong base, he becomes easy prey for the DB. You study and analyze the other team. That's why we have scouting reports of each other teams and the bases they are on. It helps us better devise game plans to slow the other team down. But the question I have is, if I showed you this video and it happened over and over again, would that change your mind or would I just be wasting my time, filming and editing things when I know you (not personally you) still harbor those thoughts? Youtube takes time and effort. I will be going away from showing things on this site and I will show these type of things on the FF.COM site in the future, though.

Michigan Joe,
We don't allow for audibling WRs because it takes too much extra time and the DBs would be able to make the same switch. It's more terrifying to see a WR at the initial play be angled in a manner or have the recievers staked and the second one angle. There are many ways to get the receivers open. The possibilities are endless. Trust me, scoring has never been a problem.

And even with the great defensive backs, scores can range anywhere from the 60s to the 3-0. It's just, who's matching up well in certain places.

Just my opinion

Reg

As Lomax said, and as one of the creators of the Strategy Divider, I gotta let you know, Mo, that there is ONLY one secret behind the screen - Which way is everybody pointing? ALL WRs are called out so the Defense knows what "package" is in the game; the 5 OL are always in the same positions; the QB is somewhere behind Center; and depending on the number of WRs called out, you can determine how many RBs are in the game - and they'll be somewhere between the OTs. THAT'S ALL THE SD DOES. IT ACTS LIKE THE BREAK OF THE HUDDLE.

Dre,

the more you play, the more you will see some of these things in action. RR makes a good point, but I can achive the same thing from a traditional figure are the CB spot.

Keep on working on your team ..... you will begin to see some of these things the more you line up and play!!!!

holding receivers at the los
 

Personally, I don't mind the holding at the LOS. There are numerous ways to combat this:

- Slot receivers angled
- Pick plays
- Backfield receivers
- Receivers that curve hard

To me, if the guy gets a good hold, then he, in essense, "covered" the receiver that play.

There are great passers in the hobby that can hit 90% of their passes easy. Many of them go 5-wide every play. Giving these guys "more offense" I don't think is necessary.

Also, when guys create their DB's, are they fast and can they curve into the QB so if they do release or the receiver pivots to another defender, then they are still doing something valuable in making the QB short-switch?? I don't mind that happening as I usually have a safety over the top on each side (cover 2).

One passing variation I would love to see is to take any unengaged defender within a certain radius (let's use blue-stick) and be able to position him anywhere behind the receiver...just to make the great passers "think."

You could then remove the guy and say that he went for the pick and not the tackle in a rule set where the guy gets to keep on running.

picture's
 

does anyone have any pics of their cover corners as of 4/14/2008


lets see the difference in the arm extension's that have been discussed ?


Reg, i asked before, during the initial set up within the 35 seconds before any audibles or anything thing else, can the receivers be angled. When you answered before i think you thought i was saying after the clock expires.

When im setting up my play and i place my receiver down on the board, can i point him in any direction before the 35-45 clocks stops. "EAST, WEST ,NORTH, SOUTH, NORTHWEST, SOUTHEAST, SLOTS POINTING EAST AND WEST (> <) ( ON THE LINE LIKE THIS / \ OR / / OR \ \ OR > / OR \ > "

THANX
LET ME KNOW

MANTARAYDRE


REG, ALSO, WHEN YOU AUDIBLE, DOES THE QB HAVE TO STAY BEHIND THE CENTER ON A RUN PLAY ? CA YOU MOVE HIM OVER BEHIND THE TACKLE ?

I SAW YOU DEMONSTRATE AN AUDIBLE ONCE RUNNING A SWEEP AND IM NOT SURE YOUR QB REMAINED BEHIND THE CENTER


PS/ ATT JIMBO, SAME QUESTION APPLIES IN REGARDS TO ANGLING THE REICIVERS BEHIND THE DIVIDER ONCE THE SLOT NUMBER IS CALLED OUT.

...things I'm working on
 

Dre,
If you want to see some non-grabbing corners, take a look at my Lions corners (pictures are under thread called "custom '95 lions"). I created these corners to have the figure leaning well beyond the front of the base (similar to the arms of the Buzzball cover corner) but without two extended arms to hold. I believe that I have two solid corners in these figures in that they are very physical (low center of gravity) and I can play them head on with the flat front pro line rookie or I can play them at a very slight angle where they bump hard and then they turn to cover a deep part of the field. The key for them to be able to turn is that they are on arcing bases and that the figure is extended beyond the front edge of the base. You can play them inside leverage (and at a slight angle to the reciever) and they can bump and run and stay in between the QB and reciever. Other times I bump them from outside leverage and let them arc in towards the backfield for run support. Mind you, I don't play in a league yet but these are the things I'm working on and I believe that these techniques can be successful. In many leagues, the board speed is high so its pretty tough for the corner to be asked to simply smash mouth the reciever without the reciever releasing past for some big plays. Obviously you can play safties over the top but if you could get at least one of your corners to turn back and not give up the big play then that opens the defense up to having another blitzer. Just my thoughts...gotta get back to work now :eek:
Joe

does anyone have any pics of their cover corners as of 4/14/2008

Ans. I will try to do a Youtube with this being shown.


Reg, i asked before, during the initial set up within the 35 seconds before any audibles or anything thing else, can the receivers be angled. When you answered before i think you thought i was saying after the clock expires.

Ans. Yes they can be angled before the set up clock has not expired. Not a problem.

When im setting up my play and i place my receiver down on the board, can i point him in any direction before the 35-45 clocks stops. "EAST, WEST ,NORTH, SOUTH, NORTHWEST, SOUTHEAST, SLOTS POINTING EAST AND WEST (> <) ( ON THE LINE LIKE THIS / \ OR / / OR \ \ OR > / OR \ > "

Ans. Absolutely! You can point him backwards if you would like. Any angle is okay because we are still simulating motion with the player angled.


REG, ALSO, WHEN YOU AUDIBLE, DOES THE QB HAVE TO STAY BEHIND THE CENTER ON A RUN PLAY ? CA YOU MOVE HIM OVER BEHIND THE TACKLE ?

Ans. He has to stay in the QB zone only. He can not be moved behind the tackle. As long as he's 15 yards or less and as long as he is in the QB zone, he's okay.


I SAW YOU DEMONSTRATE AN AUDIBLE ONCE RUNNING A SWEEP AND IM NOT SURE YOUR QB REMAINED BEHIND THE CENTER

Asn. There are many ways to run a sweep. I will have to show you a power sweep where the left guard kicks out, the QB is angled around right end, the FB is turned during the audible portion, the RGpinches out and the RT pinches in on the DT.

Sweeps can be ran using these players but you have to allow for a maintenance process to allow this to happen.

Reg

Any and all WRs/TEs can be angled any which way. Once the SD is lifted, DBs get a "free" move to align themselves on any angled or slotted WR/TE. Then "if" the Offense chooses to angle his WR the other way ala "deek him" he can, but then the DB can ONLY angle this time, he cannot slide or motion in front of the WR.

I'll youtube a clip for ALL to see. Maybe then we don't have to demo it as long at The SWB in June. thmbsp$

Thanx For The Replies On Wr Angling
 

JIMBO/REG,


Im asking these questions because believe it or not, some dont know this and some are not really sure.

1) When i played ernest i angled all my receivers and he stop the play saying i could not do that. I told him i asked you if that was legal and he said he never saw nothing like that done before. He was not thrilled with the idea !

THAT'S WHY I PUT THIS OUT THERE SO EVERYBODY IN THE B A M AND THE D F W KNOWS THIS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Reg please relay this to wally and mozeek so all coaches know this is acceptable.


JIMBO/ As much as someone may read the rules for the brawl they may not no this is allowed. This can change a coaches gameplan in preparing for the brawl. It's better to know right now than to call you over during many games asking what is going on.

YOUTUBE ON BOTH FRONTS WOULD BE VERY BENEFICIAL. THERE MAY BE COACHES WHO ARE NOT %100 SURE WHAT THEY CAN DO ONCE THAT STRAT DIVIDER IS LIFTED.

It does'nt hurt to discuss it now anyway, might as well get prepared.


MANTARAYDRE

bump n run
 

i play my corners from the side to run with the corners. but to help get your receivers open, we in the laefl can and do use boat bases. i think texas does to. this helps off set the cover corner.
if more leagues would allow boat bases and receivers to be hit while they are ingaged, offenses would move a lot easier. and on the other hand ,def just mite get a few pics.
just my thoughts and 1 cent!

broncoman

If I May Jump In.............
 

I Fully Agree With All Said, Of Course This Came About Years Ago, But The Offense Has The Full Advantage. In My Offensive Set My (wr), (td)'s Etc..... Has Their Assignments. They Are Set To Block-run Curls Or Crossing Pattern. It's About The Base That Player Is On And What Type Of Play You're Running. I'm Basically A Running Team, Because Of My Poor Passing Game, But I Can Get My Receiver Open As Well As Other Coaches In The League. Many Games Are Won On The Last Play. When The Game Tight We Fear The Wide Out As Well As The Run!!!!!!!!!!! The Game Has Been Modified With Differ Type Of Figures That Cover Corners Only Know What The End Zone Of The Opposing Team Looks Like:(