Why wouldn't you want to play at 4.0???
 

Just a general question. I know some have issues with the 4.0 scale and just wanted to get some feedback from the masses. Adult answers please with no sarcasm!!

Why Not 4.0
 

I don’t see any reason why a coach would not want to play in the 4.0 format other than he will have to create a team that weighs in at 4.0g. Some coaches may get on a slippery slope by claiming that moving to 4.0 means moving to a heavier weight. It’s still EF regardless of the weight at which one plays.

Maurice

The Electric Coach

All of my equipment is based on a lighter weight. I am working on a 4.0 team for the College Bowl Series, and to be honest I am used to certain figures at certain positions. I have yet to find counterparts at the heavier weight I am comfortable with, balance, performance and the like. This is especially true for WR and RB. It will take some customizing but its a different market.

Its an adjustment......

Steve,

If that is the case, why not just use the figures you are comfortable with and just bring them up to weight?

Wally

Although I don't compete...
 

I can see excatly what Treks1 is saying.

You develop a certain "comfort level" and level of competition at the lighter wieght(s) and the you have to re-learn a lot to get back to those same levels.

That was the first thing I thought of when I saw the question.

Personally, if you have the time, then I think it's a good challenge...if you are looking for one like that!

4.0
 

i Love 4.0 Scale And In The Further I Will Only Play In A League With A 4.0 Weight Scale Of Play And I Love The Dfw Rules Of Play.


the D. F. W. Rules Rock

I would love to take credit for "DFW Rules" but...
 

these are "Shootout Rules".

I may have been reponsible for authoring these rules 34 years ago BUT many leagues have adopted this style of play that they can just simply be classified as "The Shootout Rules System".

The LAEFL has its variation of the ruleset. The Alamo City EFL has its variation. The BAM has its variation. Kevin Boddie is getting ready to establish a Shootout Rules League in Washington. I know Brian Healey and Jerry Fulton are starting a Shootout League. I know a league is forming in Virginia under the Shootout Rules system. And the South Florida League of Champions has its version of the Shootout rules system. And the big league, the College Bowl Series of Miniature Football will be doing a Shootout-based system.

Yes they may have originated in the DFW but I can't give total credit to the DFW for the rules. It must be given to all the leagues that use this style, therefore, it's just the "Shootout system". All these coaches are taking the time to learn this style and that is what's great about the potential.

Reg

Way of the future?
 

I'm not an expert when it comes to this discussion. In fact, I've never played a down of EF against a coach at the 4.0 weight so you can take my comments with a grain of salt....BUT...I have experimented/played with heavier weights on my board and I gotta tell ya that it is an improvement. With more coaches moving towards bigger boards the "need for speed" becomes highly desirable. If you turn up the speed on those boards with the lighter figures they become less stable. I like playing at a high speed and find that the heavier figures are stable and run a lot smoother (not to mention the realistic, bone crushing collisions at the heavier weight/higher speeds...ya talk about excitement). Now let me say here that I understand tweaking skills (or in my case, lack thereof) play a huge role in this but I'm getting better play out of figures weighing in closer to 4.0 regardless of my tweaking skills All I did was add weight to my existing miggle/tudor/buzzball figures to reach 4.0, tweak the base a little and I'm good to go. I would think that bringing existing teams up to 4.0 for a more experienced coach would not be difficult (I mean come on...if I can do it!) Like my man Jeasy money said, I'll be looking to play at 4.0 competition at some point in the future.

Just my 2 cents!

Yea, I thought about that...... funny... most of my time has been spent shaving figures down to lose weight for 3.2g. Not sure how to come up w/ .08 grams without globbing a lot of material all over my figures. I have some ideas. Some players may just be playing light on their feet and I just hope they don't get killed.... Just have to see how it all works out.

Looking forward to building this 4.0 team and the new rule set. Very exciting.
P.S. The Big Ten will dominate!!!

i can't resist an answer
 

Whatever light weight your playing at with a certin perforoming fig you like.


Put that same fig on the scale (base and all) cut a piece of golf tape off the roll and put it on the scale with the figure. If the scale reads 3.9 to 4.0. Take a drop of glue or putty, stick on the bottom of the base (if rookie style) stick golf tape on glue or putty and you have your same player just a little heavier. If you wan't, you can create bases that way for a 4.0 and 3.2 team for the exact same figure. just mark #32 4.0 then #32 3.2 and keep them all separate as a group. NO EXTRA FIGS TO CREATE.`!!!!!!!!!!!


MANTARAYDRE

The only reason I could think of not to play at 4.0 , is that most people would have to create another team.

DRE mentioned that you can just add weight to the player base...and use figs from your current team.

That seems to make sense...thmbsp$

I am curious about this...

REG if you read this - what are your thoughts on the effectiveness of this approach as compared to a heavier figure on a non-weighted base?

Coach I've got to...
 

rely on 20 plus years of studying engineering and science in the field of weight and weight distribution and Mantaraydre is right (in my opinion).

It makes no difference how you get to 4.0 grams, it's still 4.0 grams! To me, the base plus the player is an athlete and whether the base weighs 3.2 grams and the player weighs 0.8 grams, he would in effect, perform the same task if he weighed 2.0 grams and the base weighed 2.0 grams.

I have not done a great deal of scientific experiments on this type of material but I have done similar testing when I worked as an aerospace engineer in the field of ballistics and fatigue/stress. I applied those principles from my craft to miniature football and there are great similarities in the theories.

But I do think Andre is right on. We simply add weight to the bottom of the base to bring it up to 4.0 grams and it has no negative effect on the performance. More often than not, the results are positive.

Reg

Mixed teams
 

I like Dre's idea. thmbsp$ I might add that does every player have to weight 4.0? My guess is that's the maximum limit. If you have players that you think perform better at a lesser weight (i.e. RB or WR) then leave him be! Just raise the weight of the players (my guess is the O and D lines, LB's) that you think would make you more competitive.

In fact, I like the idea someone had of different weight for different positions. I don't think most are quite ready for that yet.

Coaches, This Is What I Tried
 

FIRST OF ALL, it's a pain in the you know what making 50 million teams. JUST CHANGE THE BASES AND YOU WILL HAVE A TEAM FOR ANY TOURNEY/LEAGUE.
Develop your player and entire team at 3.2 to your liking. Like i said before mark each base with the players name and/or # and that it's, 3.2. Take all of the bases off and that's your 3.2 team. If you want, get a couple of plastic ice tray's and lye the bases in them upside down and put them in a draw.



take your same exact team and develop a team again as if it were 3.2 (dont weigh anything yet) once that team performs to your liking. now add the weight. Put fig and base together on scale and it may say 2.8 or 3.1 whatever. leave the figure and base on the scale and grab the roll of golf tape and cut a piece and lye it on the scale with the figure and base. it may bump it up to 3.7, then you know to cut a much smaller piece and lye that down on the scale until you get it right at 4.0. you will have to fold the golf tape and just glue and place under the bottom. mark player's name and/or # and 4.0. do for all players and you have two teams with the same exact fig's.


I don't care if my receivers are 4.0 because there job is to get open and not be strong men. The running BACKS i would make 4.0 to offest the linebackers during a running play.

i tried this method on a wellington fig that was 2.7 and he ran down field 80 yds. I bumped up the same fig to 4.0 and he ran down field 85 yds.

On ttc bases the room is limited on the bottom but there are some nook's and crannies for small pieces.Also, just cut a strip of golf tape and put it between the players platform underneath and the top of the ttc base. When you slide the player on the base you dont notice the golf tape if it is cut to size.


I PERSONALLY DON'T SEE WHY YOU CAN'T USE THE SAME PLAYERS AND JUST CHANGE THE BASES. THIS WAY, YOU ARE PREPARED FOR ANY STYLE/WEIGHT CLASS THROWN AT YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

STORE THOSE BASES IN A ICE TRAY LYING UPSIDE DOWN SO THE PRONGS GET A REST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MANTARAYDRE

4.0 is perfect
 

i have found that bases perform much better & run much truer with weight,if every figure is 4.0 whats the defferance if they are all 3.5 or 3.0,every figure would still be even,i personaly think 4.0 should be the standard,whats the BIG deal.

For 4.0...
 

I wouldn't recommend that anyone purposely weight the figures, weight the bases instead. Lower weight is usually better anyways for stability (higher moment of inertia). Also, don't assume that each player needs to be 4.0. If you have a slippery reciever in a 3.2 league then he'll still be slippery when playing against 4.0 figure (just do a quick test to verify it). I've actually noticed weight is great for speed more than power since the heavier weight adds stability to the stiffer (and usually more vertical) fast prongs. Power is created by thin rear prongs that drag which can be achieved thru tweaking. Weight simply increases the friction so of course it can help strength too but tweaking is the most significant factor. My other experience is that a tweaked base for a 3.2 figure can at times have prongs that are too weak to benefit from added weight (although this is rare). Therefore it can be benefitial to have the weight added while tweaking.

It can be difficult to add weight to a base depending on the style of base. It's easy to add lead tape to the underside of the players platform. I have posted step by step photos on this. You can take a bone stock squad weight them up to 4.0 with lead tape under the player platform and you are set. It then peels off with your fingernail when done, piece of cake no brainer.

Now with that said, I spent a fair amount of time taking 67 bigmen up to 4.0 and tweaking them all. I then learned that the added weight means nothing if you can tweak for strength. I took my strongest man weighted up to 4.0 and tweaked that way, I then took stock 67 bigmen with no weight added and was able to tweak an entire line stronger then the 4.0 weighted player I was using as a measure.

I agree with Michigan Joe, in that weight may help a little with strength, but most of the strength will come directly from the tweak. I also agree that if you are going to use a weight adder, then weigh the athlete (base+figure) up and then start tweaking.

Don't fall victim to the thought that added weight helps make a stronger base. I also thought they ran better and were smoother until Vince Peatros showed me the light. I now have a team that is stronger and faster than it was before now with no weight added.

Be careful what you put into "4.0" you may find that staying stock is more beneficial if you can tweak them up right. I am finding that 4.0 standard is more to include all figure and base combos than for outright performance.

So So Performance
 

I am fully aware I might step right in the heaping pile on this issue. But I ain't skeeerd. I know what I know and the rest is simply my opinion(s). RJ requested "adult only" replies. And I will insist on respecting his request.

1) I have said (and preached) from day one (for many years/moons) that we (the hobby collectively) have room for adding weight, but not so much adding any overall size. Weight helps to settle a player down, makes the figure on top far less of a (bad) balance issue - something all too common in the hobby (bad figure weight distribution). Only a very few stock figures have decent weight distribution. The rest require compromising the base performance by first tweaking out the ill-balanced figure. And that before tweaking performance in.

There really is no maximum weight limit, per say. It is only restricted by the field construction. I.E., field thickness, motor strength, and how well they work in unison.

2) There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong w/playing at 4.0. Or any other specific weight for that matter. To me, it's just another equipment spec to play by. Though, to be perfectly honest, 4.0 as a limit does not interest me in the least.

3) 4.0 is a "tweener" weight limit. Yes, it's heavier than 2.0+1.2/1.3=3.2/3.3. But not heavy enough to show off the beauty of heavier weighted play. It's just enough to add some oomph and settle the players down (from ill-balanced figures). But there are much better choices, performance wise, than 4.0.

However, if 4.0 rocks your world, by all means, play that way. Or any other way or weight for that matter. If it's a fun format for you and you enjoy the company, then it's all good.

4) 7-8+/- grams, base weight (no figure applied) is a far better weight for performance. That includes speed, strength and player stability. This weight class would feature 8.5 to 10 gram players, in general (after adding the figure to the base). Don't take my word for it. Try it yourself. You'll see. I have. And since I know what I know, 4.0 doesn't interest or excite me enough to bother with it. Down side, for some, is piling on swing weight tape ain't gonna cut it for this weight class.

5) After 7-8 gram bases, you really need to go full blown unlimited weight to benefit. Whatever you can "hide" under the shell that is non-destructive (to the coaches or the board, should if fall out) is fair game. Figure weight can be legislated or unrestricted. It's up to the format. Both work fine. This format allows you the broadest options for truly building a team to your liking. that's because you're not strapped w/weight limits. Want a team of Fridge players, including your backfield, do it. Want a lighter, faster OL like the Broncos had, do it. Want a blend of speed and strength (highly recommended), do it. No scales (weigh-ins) required.

Again, FWIW, just some knowledge shared and a few opinions based on that knowledge. Hopefully, someone may find it slightly useful.

-Mike Pratt

great research
 

this is very true,when my friends & i played in the 70s & 80s we did not have a weight limit,but i image we played around 7-8 grams some figs weight was far less(wr,rb,cb,s)so on but since i have returned to the hobby 4.0 is the tabu,to me this is still very light,heavier does not mean stronger or faster but the weight takes the shock of the board vibration out of the base giving it a smoother run,this is what good tweakers are able to do without using weight,so why is there a limit?i'v only been back for 7 months,whats realy going on?whos afraid,& why?

All this talk reminds me of motorcycles. First they came out with 350's. Everyone was happy and they sold a zillion of them. Then, someone decided that a 400 would be better, so they made those. Then they decided that 450's would be even better, then they bumped them up to 500's. Every year, they keep increasing the displacement just a little. Pretty soon, the original bikes are considered too small and nobody makes them any more. 750's used to be the 'big' bikes, now they're considered to be 'beginners' bikes. Begining bikes used to be 175's and 250's. Today, if it's not at least 1800 cc's, it's looked at as being puny. This is never going to end. First 3.2, then 3.5, now it's 4.0, tomorrow it'll be 4.5, then 5.0 ...... Play with whatever weight you like. Just pick a number and stick with it. mgngcrz rfr$

Yo Mike.........
 

..........Mike you are right about this because I think when I first started playing the figures wa around that weight because we added bb's underneath and pennie on top of the base in which the player rested on. not to mention dried up bubble gum that became hard as a rock.

Diversity
 

4.0 isnt the issue its the style of play
 

even tho the question is why not play 4.0 that to me isnt an issue, playing heavier period is a different experience than 3.2 which for me now is of no interest. but the 4.0 style on a whole is what brings the game to new levels of excitement.

Unfortunately due to the nature of the athlete (figure+base) you need some limitations so that everyone is on an equal playing field.
I find that a 4.0 max is an OK ruleset, it allows you to go up to 4.0 if you desire at certain positions or leave them bone stock if that works for you, but the option is there,as well as a ceiling, no matter what you do, you must stop at 4.0.

I think it makes sense, a lot of people are slowly turning to 4.0 finally and starting to see the benefits. I on the other hand have actually begun to see some benefits in going lower than 4.0.


I agree, diversity is needed, but if you have a nationwide thing going then a weight limit is nice.

Just my opinion. Good to see you posting. You got a college team prepped for the CBSMF?

Your WRs and RBs don't necessarily have to come in at 4.0, most experimenting I have done, they seem to run and perform better in the 3.3-3.65 range. Mind you, this is my particular tweaking style, my figures, my board, etc..just a note that you do not need nor may not want to put these skilled positions at 4.0, weigh them up and them gradually back down until you find a happy zone for them to be in.

Please I beg you to have a WR..........
 

..........at 3.3 or 3.5 against me, he will never get off the line of scrimmage!!!

I agree with Loc it is not just the weight but the style of play. I for one will not play any other way when it comes to league play but under the TSO ruleset.

I Agree !!!!!!!
 

The style of play should surpport the range of weights, and bring balance to the playing field while not restricting the coaches creativity.

Ok RJ,
I hope we get the chance to play. You did say NEVER. I think your being just a little to cocky my freind. I will tell you I have a reciever at 2.2 that will get open one time or another during the game.thmbsp$ I mean I repeat you did say never. I am not saying he will be open every time but he will get open.


Geno H

Geno, got to add a lil............
 

...............---- talking in between all this madness, it just wouldn't be right if I didn't!!! Now if you want me to key up on the 2.2 dude I will do just that!!!!! Geno you are playing this year with us right?

We will schedule you guys in Rivalry Weekend
 

in Oklahoma City.

USC vs. Kansas State

Yall can settle all the talk on the wooden gridiron. And now, the college rivalries have begun!

I know RJ...and I am just givin it right back!:D :D :D ;) No, by the time I realized I could probably make the DFW League a reality ....I think all the slots are filled. I would love to be a part of it.


Geno H

Please..........
 

......do Reg, we have to settle this nonsense once and for all ---- the wildcats!!!! In the words of the greatest ghetto woman of all time (Raputia), Ha U Doer'n???

REGINALD......dont insult me I AM KANSAS UNIVERSITY not k-state.:mad: :D


USC going ddddddooooowwwwnnnnnnnn.......................drl$ $ drl$$ drl$$ drl$$ drl$$ drl$$ drl$$ drl$$ drl$$ drl$$



Geno H

Geno, when you make out the Big 12 Slot...
 

put USC as one of your opponents. We've got 9 months to "manufacture" some bad blood between you two. Where do you want to start?

With bases? 4.0? School colors? Mascots? Locale? What school is older?

There's a lot of "hot topics" to create hatred between you guys to sell some tickets! And just think, that's 9-10 months away!:rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :chr: :chr: :chr: thmbsp$ thmbsp$ thmbsp$ thmbsp$ rfr$ rfr$ rfr$

My bad Geno
 

Rock-Chalk-Jayhawk!

I've got to give you props! I hate Kansas because they beat my beloved Memphis State Tigers.

On a positive note, Kansas just signed two outstanding players from my son's high school football team. One is the quarterback, Christian Matthews and a safety who was honorable mention all-state.

The QB will be playing in the NFL. He is that good. Strong-armed kid with great intellect. Outstanding athlete pure-pocket passer who led Arlington Bowie to the state semifinal. Holds city passing records in every category. This guy will be a 1st round pick in the NFL!

The safety has a chance to be a star in the NFL as well. It helps that Kansas is finally on the map with the QB it has right now and Christian should step right in after him. I tried to get my wife to talk him into going to Tennessee but we did not get to him in time.

Reg

Oh yeah................
 

........the Kansas "G--HAWKS", I mean Jayhawks:chr: :chr: :chr: :chr: :chr: :chr: :chr: :chr: !!!!!!! My bad about the --- bashing!!!!

Disclaimer: If anyone is offended by those remarks, I am sorry fo those comments

RJ,

You know what I do with used TROJANS ? :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl:

drl$$ drl$$ drl$$ drl$$ drl$$ CANT WAIT!!!!!




Geno H

Geno.............
 

..............:rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: , that is funny as hell!!!!! Good comeback!!!

I read that again.........
 

........Geno that was hilarious man!!! We gonna have some fun next year with this one!!! Used Trojans!!!!! :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: