Is the Hobby to large to play one way????

[Coach Rip]

Wow, ............. I thought this board was established for freedom of expression., ...........Ray just expressed his views, ...............with something HE had experienced, ............... if this is going to be some politically correct board, where if someone mentions , .............UH, .........let's say BuzzBall, .........then thay have to mention others too?

Originally Posted by Coach Rip

Wow, ............. I thought this board was established for freedom of expression., ...........Ray just expressed his views, ...............with something HE had experienced, ............... if this is going to be some politically correct board, where if someone mentions , .............UH, .........let's say BuzzBall, .........then thay have to mention others too?

George don't try to start causing a divide on this board. Ray is free to express his opinions just as I am. If his post had stepped over the line it would have been removed without bias, just as it done on the miggle board; then you can moan about censorship till you're blue in the face.

As far as being "politically correct"... There are way more people pushing that rock than I ever will, but I notice your not flipping your gums at them. Oh that's right... they must be the "keepers" in this hobby. I could list examples and make this post the longest one ever written, but I don't feel like wasting my time.

Guttman and Wolf can vouch for the fact that if I had a question about comments, bias, censorship, or just why the heck did you do that?... I called them offline and asked them about it privately. I didn't go on miggle and start labeling them (as I've seen some do) or try to undermine their authority as moderators, because the job is tough enough as is. Now this doesn't mean we always agree but I do ask them their thoughts (and only if their willing to share them) so I can understand where they were coming from when they did or said something that was of interest to me.

My comments to Ray were from one friend to another, you can try to twist or spin them anyway you want, but I doubt Mr. Fanera took them personally. Mainly because I know that if he felt there was a REAL problem between us, he would CALL me and we'd talk about it.

It amazes me that you have nothing to say (publicly) when it comes to all the major bickering, attacking, and spiteful comments that go on in this hobby, but you'll pipe up over a minor comment made by one friend to another. Hmmmmm....who really looks like they have the problem???

If it's you... all I can tell you is my number hasn't changed. If you need me hear your real thoughts instead of having to interpret them over the net I'm game to listen; Moreover, this is not a challenge it's an invite for dialogue or to clear up any misgivings. If you don't have a problem with me (cool), then I don't expect to get a call.

Either way, the comments I made to Ray were just that... to Ray. Anymore discussion about them (and ONLY if Ray feels like it's necessary) will be in private between Ray and myself.

- Don Smith

Guys,

Interesting post and replys. Their are several challenges that will not let this happen.

1) A persons comfort level with the style of play and their willingness to go outside this comfort level.

2) Rules that are put in place to either cover up a weakness in the their game.

3) Rules that are put in place to maximize the strength in their game.

4) Ego's

Most of this could all be overcome if Miggle produced a detailed rule book. Which would outline the playing this great game. Unfortunately they are not capable in doing so. Which is sad to say.

Wally

p.s. Old School, I love your quote... it speaks volumes on the issues in electric football

Wally J,

Miggle is unable to offer such a manual because they are unable to offer a realistic style of playing minature football. I don't even know that the business minds over at Miggle even know anything about how to play the game.

The glory in Miggle's shortcomings are that they leaving the door open for so many of us up and comers to step in and fill the void. We are working on a manual for playing EF unlike any that has been done before.

We are praying that when finished, this guide will set a new standard for EF. This is the growth period fo EF. This is the time when any and all who have ideas must step to the forefront and take the wheel. Many of those ideas are being made into commercial products so it is possible to get your ideas out there.

[Kansas Bill]

Originally Posted by WallyJ

Guys,

Interesting post and replys. Their are several challenges that will not let this happen.

1) A persons comfort level with the style of play and their willingness to go outside this comfort level.

2) Rules that are put in place to either cover up a weakness in the their game.

3) Rules that are put in place to maximize the strength in their game.

4) Ego's

Most of this could all be overcome if Miggle produced a detailed rule book. Which would outline the playing this great game. Unfortunately they are not capable in doing so. Which is sad to say.

Wally

I think you're right on the mark Wally..

I'm not sure about the comfort levels..
BUT.. I do know there isn't any set of rules that could cover up all of my weaknesses...

[Coach_J]

Hello everyone Coach_J here. I hope that everyone is doing well. I tried three times previously to respond to this but was having problems logging in. Hopefully my response will be successful this time.

Like the rest of us I have seen similar posts like this but never bothered to respond. This will be the first time for responding to such a post and what I am about to say is neither right or wrong but simply an observation.

1) First of all this is ONLY A HOBBY with little plastic men. In other words lets not get carried away and bogged down on rules/styles of play. In some respects maybe the hobby has become too big for one style of play. We must understand that EVERY style of play has a place in the hobby and there is NO right or wrong way to play. I could be wrong but most of us probably started by following the Miggle set of rules and tweaked them from our understanding of football. The tweaked rules/styles of play became part of the leagues and tournaments that we participated in. When we became part of a league or participated in a tournament then we simply followed the rules of the league or tournament that we participated in. In other words "When In Rome Do As The Romans Do". If the style of play is not for you then we have choices to either follow the rules or move on. Now here is what I find is vital and that is if you move on then do NOT put down the style of play especially publicly.

2) I could be wrong but I think there are four styles of play that are currently part of our hobby. As I said previously if a certain style of play does not suit you then move on and do NOT put down the style of play publicly. Nor should we publicly say that our style of play is the best way to play. Where am I coming from ? I am so glad you asked. Every style of play has its strengths and yes its weaknesses. College football is at least a multi million $$$$$$ industry and the NFL is a multi billion $$$$$$ industry. All of us look at college football and the NFL every weekend. Both have rules and use advanced technology. Guess what with all of the money and advanced technology the rules have flaws. College football has the BCS using computers to determine the top teams in order to choose the champion. Guess what almost every year the BCS ends up being the BC "Mess" especially when it comes to choosing the #2 team to play for the championship. In September the University of Oklahoma lost to the University of Oregon after the officials used advanced technology and still made the wrong call. As we know Oklahoma lost. Had the officials made the right call then maybe Oklahoma and not Florida plays in championship game. This year the big debate in the NFL is the questionable roughing the QB calls that have determined the outcome of ball games. Plus a week ago a defensive linemen was reluctant to make a tackle on a QB fearing he would receive a penalty. His team lost because of that play. Now if rules are flawed in a multi billion dollar industry with advanced technology then guess what the various rules in our hobby have flaws.

3) Keep an open mind. You can always learn something from another style of play. You never know the different style of play may can make you a better coach in the style of play that you normally participate in. It is easy to get stuck in a comfort zone. Again we all have choices and we must be respectful of the different styles of play. For example some of us, me included, know people who are involved in all four of the styles of play in our hobby. I could care less what style others play because I am glad just to see people playing.be wrong but some only have a rapport with those involved in there style of play. By the way if you are travelling to another part of the country and know a coach in that city that you want to scrimmage then you play by his rules. After the scrimmage politely ask to play by the rules that you are familiar with. If he says no then move on. Of course if it is a new coach then you share what knowledge you have.

4) Yes there are different styles of play but that is of little importance. We are ambassadors of the hobby from the veteran coaches to the coach who started last week. Our job is to PROMOTE THE HOBBY and nothing else. As for promoting the hobby here is a question for all of you. How many of us take the time to welcome new coaches to the hobby ? OUCH. All of us should take the time to welcome a new coach even if it is just to say hello and not promote a style of play. Even if the coach lives on the opposite end of the country welcome him to the hobby. If they have a question about painting or tweaking and you are not a painter or tweaker then put them in touch with the right people. That goes a lot further than telling them about styles of play. Guess what the styles of play will eventually come to them but remember LET THEM CHOOSE. We may not think so but from the way I see it the life blood and survival of the hobby is not the style of play but the newbies and those coaches who are in the next generation. Little do we know what kind of an impact it will have on a new coach when we welcome them to the hobby. At the same time we do not know what kind of talent the new coach might have and even a veteran coach can learn from a newbie. So do NOT bog the newbie down with styles of play. Now if he asks about rules then tell him what you are familiar with but don't tell him that this is the only way to play. Remember welcoming and helping a newbie to the hobby goes much further Promoting The Hobby than a style of play.

5) Finally don't forget about the 3 F's and that is FELLOWSHIP, FUN, and FRIENDSHIP. When it is all said done through FELLOWSHIP, having FUN, can lead to lasting FRIENDSHIPS and not styles of play. We are all familiar with the motto of the Oakland Raiders and that is "JUST WIN BABY". When it comes to electric football the heck with the style of play instead my motto is simply "JUST PLAY BABY".

Hopefully everyone understand my lenghty take on this subject matter. If I said anything that was confusing and you need a further explanation then by all means please feel free to contact me. Until then "JUST PLAY BABY".

Coach_J

[Ray F]

Easy guys, I did not mean to offend anyone or any style by not stating or naming other rule-sets that are well done in terms of specifics, and no harm taken on my end. I thought the original rules 2000 were well done and provided a great set to draw wisdom and specifics from. I have read other league rule sets over the years just to get the knowledge and decide if anything appealed for solitaire play. In terms of competition I have the most experience with NHFL and BuzzBall rules so naturally I stated those. I learned a few things about the DFW rules at the Brawl but I have not studied those rules for a few years but they had a great deal of specificity as well. I understand there is only a limited market for any EF rule book and thus Miggle sees no need for one that looks like an “official rule” book, which hurts the hobby in my opinion. The original Tudor rule book was written with less specificity intentionally to allow kids to be creative. Unfortunately for formal competition we need all aspects of the game spelled out and enforceable. Like I said before, we can debate and tweak the rules via a public forum but when we get in the room together, the rules don’t seem to get in the way of a good time. Just look at how well the Green Room Rumbles go off each year with minimum specificity.

BTW- if the Brawl was to hold an after hours players tournament sporting the teams from the U.S. military academies, we can call it the “War Room Rumble.” Ray F./Manhattan Ray/Mr. Unity 2006

[Coach Rip]

Just asked a simple question.

I think it truely comes down to this....YES ...IT IS TO LARGE TO PLAY ONE WAY!

One set of rules for the beginner.

One set of rules for the advanced.

If I had a dime for every time I herd...." well why do we play like that"....lets face it guys...The game will NEVER CHANGE.....only ones INTERPRETATION WILL. You still have to line up the same way and RELY ON THE BASES. Sure making the game more real is great...I'm all for that....But it is what it is....A GAME!...

Take the game of chess for example.....

You cant expect a beginner to play a advanced player...they would lose within the first 5 moves...Is it because his pieces look better...NO...is it because he has a better understanding of the game....maybe....is it because he is more experianced at the game....YES

If you take a poll and ask how many people have been playing some type of electric football over the past 30 or so years, I bet my life on just about 95 % will say they have been playing with their own style in one form or another.

The style in which most tournaments are basicly set for the advanced player, not the beginner. Most leagues are set for the advanced player...thats why the rules have been modified, created, adjusted...what ever you call it. lets face it....The more one gets exposed in playing, the more one wants to change the rules. Is that a bad thing...NO...it shows how the game and hobby has advanced.

The first set of rules that were out there other then what Miggle had was RULES 2000.....and that was made from a group of guys that wanted to make the game more real because they were advanced in the game, NOT TO BELITTLE MIGGLE. They just wanted more out of the game. I for one, would love to see a advanced version of this to fit the current style of play.

Someone will always complain about this or that...thats why there are choices out there. If you dont like it one way...play another way! Lets just be thankfull there are many different ways to play period. But lets not shoot each others methods down. We need to find a happy medium and go from there.

By the way....WHAT IS the current name for the tournament style of rules? I beleave 3 out of 4 of the biggest tournaments are using the same style format, just with different styles of bases and figures are permitted. The backbone of rules are basicly the same.

just my thoughts........and they dont mean to offend anyone.
coach STONER

Originally Posted by Ray F

BTW- if the Brawl was to hold an after hours players tournament sporting the teams from the U.S. military academies, we can call it the “War Room Rumble.” Ray F./Manhattan Ray/Mr. Unity 2006

Ray... War Room Rumble sounds really good. Thanks for the suggestion.

Originally Posted by coach STONER

I beleave 3 out of 4 of the biggest tournaments are using the same style format, just with different styles of bases and figures are permitted. The backbone of rules are basicly the same.

Stoney... I agree your entire post 100%. The last couple lines spoke volumes. After reading posts, some of the new people in our hobby have come to believe that this game is being played a hundred different ways, and that rules and equipment change from person to person. When that's hardly the case. I'm going to start a new thread explaining this.

Originally Posted by WallyJ

Guys,

Interesting post and replys. Their are several challenges that will not let this happen.

1) A persons comfort level with the style of play and their willingness to go outside this comfort level.

2) Rules that are put in place to either cover up a weakness in the their game.

3) Rules that are put in place to maximize the strength in their game.

4) Ego's

Most of this could all be overcome if Miggle produced a detailed rule book. Which would outline the playing this great game. Unfortunately they are not capable in doing so. Which is sad to say.

Wally

p.s. Old School, I love your quote... it speaks volumes on the issues in electric football

Wally, (First let me say) Thanks for coming back to the EF scene and posting again. We appreciate you sharing your thoughts and insights. I also agree with your post, but I think that the points you make are the way things use to be in our hobby instead of how they are now. Many guys in this hobby travel to play in different tournaments and some guys travel to play in leagues outside of their backyard. As Coach Stoner alluded to... the backbone of rules are basically the same. So Wally, my question is: "If rules, comfort levels, and how we're playing isn't the problem... what's the real problem?"

Just my thoughts,

OldSchool