The Usage Of Al Reveena's Spring Leg Kickers In Tourney's) Why Are Their Handcuff's

[Anthony D Burgess]

This is the 100% truth !!!! And I think is one of the reasons why the game went into the closet .

Originally Posted by childslovegame

Dre'

I too don't understand people's fears in banning certain figures, bases, and weights. Al recorded an entire segment on how to create the Spring Loaded Kicker. It's coming out on our DVD. As a matter of fact, the very first TTQ made by Tudor was spring loaded. Check out the 1962 Model #500 set.

People are getting tired of someone eles telling them what they can and can't play with! I understand there needs to be uniformaty, but stunting someone' creativity can push some people away from the hobby.

What if someone came up with a method to make the bases stronger and faster without tweaking or boiling, would they be allowed to play in tournaments and leagues? Probably not! I know a guy who's been on the fringe of this hobby for years because no one will allow him to play with his bases. He came up with an idea to make his bases stronger by examming Tudor's very first toy bases. If you put a boiled or tweaked base up to his, no contest; not even close. He's gonna to blow you out! He has the strongest line in Electric Football and no body will let him play! They think he has an unfair advantage. Why do rules in this hobby try to make everybody the same or attempt to create a "Level Playing Field." Football is Football. As a coach or an organization, I'm trying to get the upper hand, not get them tied by somebody eles rules.

Remember how you played this game when you were a kid? Creativity and fun!
That is the spark that draws guys back into this hobby! You remembered, and you found out that you can relive those childhood memories as a matured adult, still able to use your creativity in creating figures, painting, and playing.

I really believe that's one of the reasons why we don't see the brothers from the West Coast. We stunt their creativity, but the real reason is that we are afraid that they may have something that may be more superior. And if they do, you play them until you figure out how to stop them!

In 40 years, this game has not changed in how it's played! Maybe that's why we can't get the attention of the younger generation. This is a visual, tactile generation, and we can't get them to play Electric Football? You want them to buy a ton of bases and TTQ's just to find a jem! They are not going to do that!

Smitty
BMEFA

It's nice to see that players now want to intergrate different styles of bases, this is really refreshing. I think this hobby is going to excel even more with that kind of thinking. Smitty, you are right, most if not all the players on the west coast feel that way, they play with non-boiled bases, boiled bases, boat bases, munro bases, coleco bases, miggle bases, tudor bases, ITZ bases and who ever makes any new bases. CREATIVITY SHOULD NOT BE HANDCUFFED. I have a mixture of all of the above on all my teams now and I was the biggest detractor of NON-BOILED BASES. Time brings wisdom, there is a reason why there are old fools in this world, THEY WERE YOUNG FOOLS.


Vincent Peatros

[O-schemer]

I like this discussion. Let's automatically look for reasons to include new innovations instead of automatically excluding things because of our fears.

That's what I think is great about David Nichols of the Oxford League. A guy came up from Florida with at least 5 pennies stacked between the base and the player. Instead of disqualifying him or refusing to play, David played him and won. Unfortunately the guy hasn't been back, but it wasn't because his equipment was outlawed.

This guys figures were painted very nice, and it was obvious he took pride in his team, as it should be. We need guys like that. If you automatically disqualify them, you eliminate the chance of something good happening.

Bring on Al's kicker, bring on the boiled bases, bring on the custom figures. Let's play!

[Michigan Joe]

There have to be rules in order to define a competition, but a great point was made that we need to be open minded to be progressive. I must admit that when I first started to watch the hobby from the sidelines, the matter of rules always seemed so divisive which really made no sense to me then as it does now.

I think we should embrace the diversity we have in the hobby regarding style of play- the Brawl championship with the divider, the Shootout with its widely accepting equipment rules, Miggle with a traditional set of rules, Buzzball tourney, etc. How about an MPFL tournament to truely establish that style of play because that style is VERY intriguing (you can't coach AND control 11 players in video games!) Our hobby is kind of like golf which has different courses/venues that dictate completely unique styles of play (for any golfers you can appreciate the uniqueness that each of the major tournaments add). I certainly didn't mean to exclude any tournaments by not naming them, but I am still realitively new to the hobby and my whole point here is that we have some great venues and we should enjoy each for what they are- football camaraderie, fun, and friendship. The reason that I'm even on this board is because of a great experience that I had at Jimbo's college tournament in Gary, IN last year. I met some great quality people, had fun kickin it with football enthusiasts, got to compete in a fun style of play, and quite simply enjoyed a "guys day" which was a nice break from being with my little kids 24/7. That was one of my major minature football expieriences that I draw on and it is one of the reasons why I think this is a great hobby. If I had the time I'd have teams made for all of the unique tournaments. So for those of you with a passion for game I say keep inventing and keep innovating and be sure to post your new ideas at this site!

Joe

[WEIRDWOLF]

OK don't take me wrong on this . I am going to play devils advocate for a second.

Here is my latest invention. It's the lead weight linemen.

Ask your self is this legal to play in your tourney?

My point is that we can't let everything go. There has to be some definition to what we are doing .

As we formed the MFCA one of the first things we put in place was this definition.
The MFCA defines Miniature Football as: Miniature football players on bases which are propelled over a miniature football field through the vibration created by an attached electric motor.

I think that the hobby still has to portray the look and feel of football as much as it can. I don't want to see the day again that someone shows up with 40 layers of clearcoat and all the arms cutoff just to win the game. This is why rules are put in place. That's not saying that rules can't be changed as the hobby progresses but lets make sure that we are moving forward and not backword. In the case of Al's kicker I see it as a forward move. In the case of the guy that stacked 5 pennies under his player, I see that as a backword move whether he won the game or not. Of course that is only my personal opinion.

Ultimately I agree with what Michigan Joe wrote. Embrace the many ways to play and enjoy the company. Most of all have fun and if you are not having fun then either buck for change, start your own league or find a league that fits but always have fun!

In the case of the MFCA skills rules there is no need for a petition. We have a process in place and every coach that is a member will be able to vote on Als kickers after this season of regionals. I look forward to the process and if we can have this many dedicated people casting their votes as we have discussing this topic it will make for a tremendous strides in miniature football.

This is an excellent discusion. Please keep this going.

...some reasonable semblance of standardization. I would love to see the standard weight limits changed to 4.0, 3.6 and 3.2g, but it's gonna take some time for people to realize that your guys perform better at higher weight than at lower weight. Sure you'll still need that Warrick Dunn, 185lber to scat thru the hole, but the whole defense shouldn't max out the weight scale either!

• OL and DL = 4.0 grams max.
• RBs, TEs and LBs = 3.6 grams max.
• WRs and DBs = 3.2 grams max.

Sorry Geno, but 3.6 is even-steven between 4.0 and 3.2.

As far as the original reason for this post, Dre, I agree something has to be done to improve the Kickers. The new plastic sucks and the older plastic TTQBs are getting scarce. If we don't allow the spring as a legal improvement, then we'll end up using our thumbs to fling the ball thru the uprights. Then the new problem will be to ban those guys that have Eagle Claw hand-trainers!?!?!?!?!

[Reginald Rutledge]

(Disclaimer) This again is one of the long-thought out post that I wrote based on my experience in this area. I think I know a little about what you guys are talking about. However, if you feel this is too long for your perusal, don't waste your time reading it.)

One of the reasons we created FF.COM players in the way we did was because of the natural weight distribution. For instance, if you look closely at our lineup of 24 players, their weight is based on what we formulated as average weight of players at each position from the high school, college, and NFL perspective.

The linemen are the heaviest. The O-Linemen and D-Linemen are the heaviest players. The LB's are the next heaviest. RB's are next in line. WR's, DB's, and QB's are similar in weight.

Weight distribuition among these players were calculated to reflect NFL-type standards. The Linemen were to range from 300-275 lbs all the way down to WR's, RB's, QB's ranging from 220-180lbs. We tried to get a general perspective on average weights.

Now, our figures are coming up on 10 years running and even we, in the DFW League see different figures in different manners. Some guys don't see the RB's that I created from real-life NFL players as RB's and linemen as the real life stars I used them from. Everybody see things differently!

With that being said, we tried to formulate a weight distribution concept no matter whether you use FF.COM, Miggle, Buzzball, Wellington, Coleco, Gotham, or anyone else's figures. Mind you, this is about 10 years ago! What we saw as the problem was simply "A Way to Police the Figures".

This is a discussion I had on the Miggle board many years ago with people. I felt there should definitely be some type of difference in weights among positions. The concern was always with how to implement that. Most people thought very negative to most things I was talking about. Maybe now, guys will see more diversity in what I say here.

For instance, we took 3 approaches. One approach was the individual weight concept. This was the concept that was based on our weight charts, all linemen had to be 4.0-3.8 grams. All Tightends had to be 3.6-3.4 grams. All WR's had to be 3.4-3.2 grams. All RBs had to be 3.5-3.3 grams. All DBs had to be 3.4-3.2 grams. All LBs had to be 3.6-3.4 grams. All QBs had to be 3.2 - 3.4 grams.

The other approach was the Unit Approach:
The Offensive and Defensive Unit had to consist of a combined weight of 420 grams. It made no difference how that weight was distributed. If you wanted your DLinemen to weigh 5 grams per player, that meant you would suffer in some other area, whether it be at LB or DB. Or if you wanted a dominate DB, you could have one weigh as much as 6 grams. But do understand that your running game may be the most porous in the league! You follow me?

The 3rd approach was to have a Team Approach:
This consisted of having a cummulative weight of players which could be limited to a certain amount of players. This would allow backups to be counted in as a part of the process as well.

I found that each method had flaws with the "police issues". However, each method works in a solataire environment. When I play alone, all of these methods are used. One of the great things that occur when you combine something like this with the DFW concept of injuries is that such weight distribution approaches can impact the team's ability to win games during the season. If one of your dominate linemen that weighs 5 grams get hurt in week 1, you are SOL because your second teamer may only possibly weigh 3 grams! So careful planning of where you would distribute weight among teams is important. The next question becomes, how would teams know that a certain player can only be used in a certain position? This is simply an issue of registration of all players with the knowledge that such and such player can only play this position during the season.

Again, these are issues we had to deal with as a league. It becomes complicated. The question of honor and ethics always came into play. Not that individual guys are dishonest but everyone wants to win and may illegally put another O-Lineman in for a D-Lineman. You can only injure so many linemen during a season.

So anyhow, from a solataire perspective, I love weight limit concepts. I use it whenever I get the chance to play. But from a league and tournament concept, let me know when this mountain has been scaled. I try to "Think outside the Box" with my league and we would love to incorporate something new to keep the spirit alive.

Again, sorry for the long detailed look at what we do. I think it was important information.

Reginald Rutledge

[Anthony D Burgess]

Why must there be a limit on things ?

Why are we trying to make every one the same ? Is it to balance out the game play ? Could the game play be the issue ?

If there is no limit on tweaking bases then there sould be no limit on weighting your team .

Why is the focus on equipment when it should be on the game , and how it plays , is it fair and balanced ?

Just because a figure has more weight than the other doesn't mean that your going to win .

There is so much talk about how much weight 3.2 , 3.8 , 4.0 , types of figures , fields .

Guys What about playing football and coaching ?

Who fumbled ? How many yards did you rush for ? How do I pull my guard ? How do I do motion ? How do I defend the out ? What's the best zone to run , 3 deep or 2 deep ? Do you throw to your back , if so how ?

I'm not upset , but just want guys to think . All the talk about non football things is/might be pushing people away .

Just something to think about !!!!!!!!

[mantaraydre]

COACHES,

We seem to like the idea of diverse weight on our off and def teams, so why are'nt we doing this. lets get a stamp on this for 2008 (new years eve).
implement it throughout the country. I still have not heard anyone give a valid reason why a team should all weigh the same, their are guy's in hotel rooms shaving, cutting and drillng players to make weight, come on now !
It would be beautiful to see a running back take on a linebacker of a different weight, (the lb can get the rb out of the way and make his tackle).

BASES, If you can find it, buy it, and it moves on any field, why cant we use any number of them. An example would be at a seawall brawl event, imagine the divider goes down and the offense is on the 5 yard line. To get the right personel in the game (bases) for a power run up the middle, he elects to put 11 boats bases on the field. The defense in its preparation prior to the game should have expected something like this and devised multiple defensive schemes to stop this.

Imagine the same offensive is on the 50 yard line, divider goes down and the offensive coach elects to put diamond speed bases on muliple receivers(spread offense) To throw a bomb downfield. Behind that divider, you cant see him switching personel (bases) for a particular play. Defense should have prepared for that also in it preparation. ALL COACHING STRATEGY. Like smitty said, he's trying to get the upper hand on his opponents. jIMBO, REG, great breakdowns of the weight issue. It seems we want this so why is'nt it happening. I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR AN EXPLANATION ON WHY A TEAM HAS TO BE THE EXACT WEIGHT.

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[mantaraydre]

HEY ANT,


Im with you also, what im saying is let us put a team together to our liking and lets us go to the playbooks. Like you said, defending the out, also the spread and multiple packages. If a player weighs whatever, your dfensive guy still has to hit him to make the play. Im really glad to see all the great football minds responding to this chat. I would love to hear more from vince peatro's, smitty, reg, wolf, al, don smith, darrian, jimbo, all of the great coaches in ef.

THE DEBATE TIL 2008

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