Scale question

Some scales that only display tenths of a gram can be internally calibrated to "roll over" at specific points. I have an older Tangent that can and I've had it set up many times to perform many weigh-ins.

I also understand the point about splitting hairs. I agree to a point. But making weight is either a pass or fail proposition. 1.39 is not 1.30. And though it can (and has) been said that 0.0x of a gram will not make or break you, it can. Consider 0.09 over the limit x 11 players. OTOH, that IS an extreme example. Most times it doesn't "weigh" out quite that extreme.

The SIMPLE SOLUTION is to invest in a quality grade set of scales and a quality grade set of proof weights. It helps if you think your scale has been knocked off or came that way. Personally, I take my scale to the pros and have them calibrate and proof before an event or league starts that I am involved in. That way I know my stuff and my scales are good to go.

As far as seriousness is concerned, and to be completely honest, a few coaches have shown a serious appetite for trying to get over in the past. Others simply had no idea their stuff was as heavy as it was (they had no means to check and no motivation to cheat). So on the other side of the seriousness coin, count me in for one that is DEAD SERIOUS about preventing those that are motivated to try and get over the opportunity to do so. Tight check-ins is a "Rock Solid" method for helping to make sure we're all playing with and without the same advantages and disadvantages.

On a more ambitious note, ever know someone who tossed a perfect game at bowling? They confiscate your ball(s) (the one(s) not attached) and lock down the pair of lanes until all is cleared. In racing, they pretty much strip your car. So it goes in most of the big leagues. But we do not have the option to confiscate a team except to hold and monitor it AFTER initial inspection.

I see it as we can embrace the "Welcome to the Big Leagues" mentality and strive to achieve it or we can continue to say "whatever" and let whatever slide. Think Small, Act small, Stay Small? Or Welcome To The Big Leagues? Think big, Act big, Fail big is also a possibility. It's up to each of us to decide where we want to light. Personally, I see the value in both as each DOES fill specific and individual needs for the hobby.

ORRRRRRRRRR, you can save yourself a LOT of grief and see it MY way..... NO weight limit on bases. Just SIZE limits. Whatever you can cram under the base shell so it doesn't show at field level and isn't harmful, toxic, etc., is fair game. Figured out a way to slap your Ford tranny under a Pro Line? Good. DO IT! Problem solved. No more weigh-ins. OH! SORRY!! I forgot where I was at for a moment..... on the internet.... not playing at home... as I've been playing for nearly 30 years.

Good topic BTW. It does have many views and many levels for exploration.
-Mike Pratt

-Mike Pratt

[Coach Rip]

which is why we have the two divisions at BuzzFest, ............Standard no weight,........... and Custom unlimited weight.

Those of you who want different weights at different positions are being a bit too idealistic, to grow and have many competitors, on a large scale, .............first, it's a game that involves many guys who want to win, .........second, it's an enforcement nightmare, and thirdly, ..........one opens himself up for arguments for guys who want to have a lineman sized running in the backfield, .............like a Bettis for instance....

I understand the want to be realistic, mimicking the real game, ..............however, until you have inspected 1000's of figures under the time constraints of a weekend tournament, .........like Shaggy and I have, many times, .......... the hundredths on the scale, and the same weight limits on all figures is not only essential, it is the only way to operate efficiently under the time constraints.

[Rock Solid]

It would take for the Tweak Freak to Speak.

I take from this post that scales are not perfect. In order to have a true scale measurement you need to have a scale calibration set of weights.
If you don't have them, the scales are like the election polls, can be up or down .04-5.
Now I wonder why we don't just adopt a .02, .03 or .04, maybe .05 for calibrated scales so the weight would actually be 2.35 on a good scale if the weight class was a 2.3. Then those with less accurate scales would be fine.

I think the weigh in time can be rough for those guys running a tournament.

On the Miggle standards. There are very few standards because it is a corporate convention and the tournament is strickly for fun. Most guys don't read the rules and last year they had one guy who had the rules burden on him the whole time. If he had to weigh the teams in, he would still be there. A coach would have to intentionally weight guys or bases because you can only use Miggle or Tudor products. You are not allowed to even use tape.
Go Nodave on patience and tolerance and effort to be fair. You really need a team yourself who know the rules back and forth, who can help you.
They put on a great show never the less. It has always been worth the effort for me to go.
Greg won the tournament with the Miggle little guys.

RS

[Geno H]

Originally Posted by Coach Rip

which is why we have the two divisions at BuzzFest, ............Standard no weight,........... and Custom unlimited weight.

Those of you who want different weights at different positions are being a bit too idealistic, to grow and have many competitors, on a large scale, .............first, it's a game that involves many guys who want to win, .........second, it's an enforcement nightmare, and thirdly, ..........one opens himself up for arguments for guys who want to have a lineman sized running in the backfield, .............like a Bettis for instance....

I understand the want to be realistic, mimicking the real game, ..............however, until you have inspected 1000's of figures under the time constraints of a weekend tournament, .........like Shaggy and I have, many times, .......... the hundredths on the scale, and the same weight limits on all figures is not only essential, it is the only way to operate efficiently under the time constraints.

I think we crossed over a couple of debates here. My simple opinion & comments was on hundreths versus tenths. I totaly understand that the weigh ins are a necessity. I also understand that it takes alot of time and effort. I have actually helped out at a couple of events I attended.


Geno H

[Rock Solid]

What type of scales are used in the above mentioned leagues?

RS

I can't speak for what others use with respect to scales. Too many variables involved. Not knowing which model to use, not having access to specific models, not being able to afford specific models, etc. I can only speak as to what I use and have been using consistently. But I can also say that in attempts at impartiality, fairness, and checks and balances, I've always advocated the use of 2 to 3 different scales at weigh-ins. One of which was professionally serviced. That being mine.

A slight bit off subject but to address the excellent point made, a little built-in tolerance is usually needed. To elaborate, I have my scales internally calibrated to read as follows for the following specific base example.....

Base @ 1.3

A base weighing 1.26 - 1.34 Reads out @ 1.3
A base weighing 1.35 flickers between 1.3 and 1.4 (alternates on the LCD)
A base that weighs .06 + any given whole gram will "roll over" to the next tenth of a gram.

In short, 1.35 WILL PASS but with a "warning sign" (alternating display between 1.3 and 1.4). This shows the base is at the tolerance limit. It also can, not will, serve as a useful guide to the team owner for future preparations. Anything from 1.26 - 1.35 will pass as 1.3. Anything 1.36 and over will fail.

Hopefully someone will find this information useful or interesting.
-Mike Pratt

[Michigan Joe]

Mike,
Yes making weight is a pass or fail proposition but I for one find it uneccessary to expect people to have calibrated scales that measure to 0.01g. That is not the SIMPLE SOLUTION, the simple solution is to relax a bit and have some fun while creating an atmosphere of competition, sportsmanship, and comradery. And thats been my experience when I've travelled to Miggle, MFCA convention, Shootout, DFW Super Bowl, and Great Lakes Super Bowl. I have not experienced the cheating or splitting hairs on every possible opening in the rule book.

As far as cheating goes, there has been a lot of implications of cheating and that is a HUGE turnoff to people. Lets be clear that this is not the norm, and I wish people would start naming names rather than generalizing about it because I feel that it creates an atmosphere of fear and resentment for people wanting to attend these events.

RS- The Miggle tournament "strictly for fun"? I think Miggle had some good competition too. In fact, I'd say the big name champions of this tournament demonstrate that it is a great competition AND a fun tournament at the same time.

[Geno H]

Originally Posted by Michigan Joe

Mike,
Yes making weight is a pass or fail proposition but I for one find it uneccessary to expect people to have calibrated scales that measure to 0.01g. That is not the SIMPLE SOLUTION, the simple solution is to relax a bit and have some fun while creating an atmosphere of competition, sportsmanship, and comradery. And thats been my experience when I've travelled to Miggle, MFCA convention, Shootout, DFW Super Bowl, and Great Lakes Super Bowl. I have not experienced the cheating or splitting hairs on every possible opening in the rule book.

As far as cheating goes, there has been a lot of implications of cheating and that is a HUGE turnoff to people. Lets be clear that this is not the norm, and I wish people would start naming names rather than generalizing about it because I feel that it creates an atmosphere of fear and resentment for people wanting to attend these events.

RS- The Miggle tournament "strictly for fun"? I think Miggle had some good competition too. In fact, I'd say the big name champions of this tournament demonstrate that it is a great competition AND a fun tournament at the same time.

BINGO!- Joe - BINGO!,
Well spoken my friend. I will say it again if you OWN the scales that are being used for ALL teams to adhere to then it seems easy to weigh in to the hundreth.
I am with Michigan Joe. I think times have changed and the majority of the people are not going out of thier way to cheat. And to "cheat" a few hundreths is not ging to make a difference in a win or a loss. However cutting up a dial on a base that someone has spent time getting just right and changing the way it performs could very well make an impact to that team.


Geno H

[Coach Rip]

clear coat.......

[Shabby J]

[quote=Michigan Joe;54723]Mike,

As far as cheating goes, there has been a lot of implications of cheating and that is a HUGE turnoff to people. Lets be clear that this is not the norm, and I wish people would start naming names rather than generalizing about it because I feel that it creates an atmosphere of fear and resentment for people wanting to attend these events.
QUOTE]


Calling out cheaters, naming names as you mentioned would be an absolute disaster on this forum. THEY CERTAINLY DESERVE TO BE CALLED OUT, I AM WITH YOU THERE, but for the sake of this forum and the hobby in general, that should be something we do not do. Cheaters and cheating should be dealt with off line and in private.

This is a topic near and dear to my heart and I do agree, but imagine the
s-storm that we would create by naming names.

Back to the topic, since 3.2 = 3.20, not 3.21, the extra hundredth may not matter on the field, but it certainly should matter at weigh in to me, this is if you are using only one scale to weigh all teams, which is how it should be done, one scale, observed by at least two individuals. If more than one scale is being used and they both read out to different decimal places, then agree what to allow. Also anything used as "weight adders" should be looked at as well to be sure it is legal, arm height and width should be be looked at if that matters, etc... Oft times if weigh-ins are rushed, which I am guessing based on experience they usually are, these things get missed. Then if they crop up later during play what do you do?

Just my two cents, this is a really good topic and there has been soem excellent feedback.