The BIG Question! Take your gloves off and discuss...

[sweetka]

Sure everyone has their style. I agree to that. My only goal is for all to understand that at the convention their must remain a default ruleset.

With respect to regional tourneys, the object was simply to sanction them, not dictate how they play game. However if/when you qualify for the big elimination tournament at the convention, albeit by tourney points, CPC, MFCAL, or league championship, Then the default rules are put into place. This way the MFCA provides an "all inclusive" opportunity at the convention for it's membership to compete. Anything less than that is unacceptable in my opinion.

I totally disagree with meddling in regional tournament or having back door tournaments for the MFCA because it just can not happen. One will always be dominant over the other and the last thing I feel needs to be done is to push that on anyone. I feel that in addition to the regional tournaments, which the MFCA should only be responsible for sanctioning, supporting, and running skills competition, it also presents leagues with an opportunity to catch up on games like the Mid-Ohio did at both the MFCA and Miggle Conventions. To impose ourselves to a secondary tournament would undermine entirely our support for what the locals are trying to accomplish. No offense but a classic example to that would be the CBSMF dominating the 2009 convention so much that the CPC had to be incorporated into their games this year. Last year I remember watching Adrian Baxter (sorry I singled you out my friend) trying to get a CPC game in with little success. We have a mission statement: it can be accomplished.

Unity: You cannot have votes on the ruleset it is just that simple IMHO. It represents compromise which means no one is happy because for every rule they vote for will not pass. Again no offense but if you have not supported a tournament that has played no less than four different formats that is a clear indication that you are not willing to change. The unity comes from first the MFCA respecting what you do in your area through support, sanctioning, and adding ambiance with the skills competition and anything else we can offer. In return, when you qualify, whether you win or lose, you support the default rules when you come to the MFCA convention. If you choose to pattern your ruleset after the MFCA default rules I feel the choice should completely be that of those individuals running their tournaments in their regions. One clear fact is the average MF coach MAY make one tourney per year.

Integrity: This is the easiest of all to acheive. By having default rules it settles all issues related to those who have enabled themselves by only wanting to play their way. Sure, we are all confortable with our rulesets but we should not under any circumstance fit our rules to any style. Yes, we do need to offer an alternative passing method beyond the TTC. Logically, the passes become more difficult as the distance increases. Therefore, it stands to reason that it would appear that the only way for that goal to be accomplished is to find a established method that suits that objective. Don't give it a name, be not concerned who allegedly invented it because I am sure that everything we did has already been done. With any touch vs front of base it would appear simple unless you have a personal bias that clouds the objective of intergrity. Front of base (my preferred style) is very subjective unless progress is stopped. It lends more to the possiblity of integrity being compromised because one person's interpretation, or objective, is different from someone else's. With ATT it is clear, with the slightest movement, that a tackle has been made in most cases. Simply stated, it is more likely than not that you can see an ATT vs FOB. It's not about preference, it's about eliminating motive and opportunities to undermine fairness.


Fellowship: Again the mission statement is met here by the MFCA sanctioning the tournament, awarding all applicable points in the tourneys, leagues, or CPC. Again, if the CPC is extended people may see the value in not packing their bags as soon as they lose at the regional events which again fulfills our requirement for fellowship. We can only offer the vehicles for success through providing support mechanism that create a positive experience for coaches at the regional level.

I personally disagree that having a default ruleset for the MFCA convention playoffs undermine the mission statement. Trying to impose our will on regional tournaments does. Not trying to appeal to the masses undermine the mission statement as well. Our job is to support your efforts then give you something to play for as well. I don't know about anyone else but the prizes offered for winning the MFCA tourney were second to none this year. NONE! Our job is to extend that support to our entire membership by all the actions recommended above. Build it and we will support it without imposing. If people want to play by our default format then we are honored. Just understand that a "die hard" hobbyist must be flexible when they come to Canton.

Just my thoughts.

[eflfanatic]

Ken,

Excellent response to this issue.

Thanks

[Megawattz]

Originally Posted by eflfanatic

Ken,

Excellent response to this issue.

Thanks

Ken has stated nothing more than whats already in place, ask the guys that take the time to organize these tournaments, "hows turnout lately?" he'll probably look at u . Fact of the matter is, Tournys are dieing a slow death, with numbers dropping each year, when there gone, then what? A "Pro" league & thats what u call it, "PRO" based on these tournaments, with rules written by those that take the time to host these tournaments, collectively then adopted by the MFCA, is a system that I feel has promise, assuming participation of course.

[FrustratedFinFan]

Well....if the so-called "national championship" ends up being based on a set of rules that doesn't really get enough input from each region, then don't expect too much support. I caution folks against making a "national" rule set and trying to impose it on each region. Even if you don't directly impose it into regional events, you encourage some amongst us to push to accept those rules so that they can be more competitive for the national trophy...at the expense of rules that have been in play successfully for quite some time in the region. I really wish we could rotate the championship amongst the regions and then you play by the rules of the host region. Every region gets to be showcased that way and it leads towards unity. Failing that, I suggest a VERY simple set of rules based on the Tudor basics so that one region or another doesn't feel slighted. Isn't that kind of how Miggle worked? I prefer Megawattz' first proposal and fear one group or another pushing their way of play on all of us. Sorry I feel that way, but I have already seen it in action right here in Los Angeles. I am more concerned with the local scene. Travel is expensive and to change the way we play for a relative few doesn't appeal to me. If I travel to play, then I expect to play by the local rules....and that doesn't bother me. Fellowship and fun are more important virtues than winning...we aren't being paid to play this game.

Also, I saw Sweetka mentioning Canton as the site again...and I thought that was not going to the be the case. If it is, then I think you should expect to see some support dropping off out west.

[sweetka]

Originally Posted by Megawattz

Ken has stated nothing more than whats already in place, ask the guys that take the time to organize these tournaments, "hows turnout lately?" he'll probably look at u . Fact of the matter is, Tournys are dieing a slow death, with numbers dropping each year, when there gone, then what? A "Pro" league & thats what u call it, "PRO" based on these tournaments, with rules written by those that take the time to host these tournaments, collectively then adopted by the MFCA, is a system that I feel has promise, assuming participation of course.

There is no Buzzball, the economy is awful. There is no disposable income and the last Miggle convention was actually a wild success tourney wise. We should also look at the "credibility" hit the tourney circuit took from an alleged tourney that never happened.

My position/vision has never changed and it has been this same position I have held since walking away from the last MFCA convention. Please review those post as the similarities to this subject fueled my re-dedication to the hobby.

Our job at the MFCA should not be to change what people do, but to enhance tourneys by extending support, incentives, etc. to make the trip worthwhile to others as well.

Just my thoughts.

[sweetka]

Originally Posted by FrustratedFinFan

Well....if the so-called "national championship" ends up being based on a set of rules that doesn't really get enough input from each region, then don't expect too much support.

To be honest unless it is shoot-out based I personally don't see getting support at the convention anyways. This is what I believe is the same mentality that dogs the hobby. Rules never get done objectively when this happens because it is not about "input, rather, control. When we go to tournaments most of the guys in Michigan would get together about a week before an run a mini-tournament using the established ruleset. I think someone from Michigan has been to every tournament with exception to the Bama-Blast. I don't remember anyone from here going to a tournament in any region trying to change the rules.

I caution folks against making a "national" rule set and trying to impose it on each region. Even if you don't directly impose it into regional events, you encourage some amongst us to push to accept those rules so that they can be more competitive for the national trophy...at the expense of rules that have been in play successfully for quite some time in the region.

I totally, unequivocally agree with you period.

I really wish we could rotate the championship amongst the regions and then you play by the rules of the host region. Every region gets to be showcased that way and it leads towards unity.

I think that this is something that could really help in moving towards a national ruleset more than any other idea. But this is a take it or leave it proposition. Most people leave it.

Failing that, I suggest a VERY simple set of rules based on the Tudor basics so that one region or another doesn't feel slighted.

The most successful tourneys do this.

Isn't that kind of how Miggle worked?

. . . and Buzzball, Shootout, etc.

I prefer Megawattz' first proposal and fear one group or another pushing their way of play on all of us. Sorry I feel that way, but I have already seen it in action right here in Los Angeles.

Shoot-Out style has a "takeover" mentality wherever I have seen it. Either you take it or leave it.

I am more concerned with the local scene. Travel is expensive and to change the way we play for a relative few doesn't appeal to me. If I travel to play, then I expect to play by the local rules....and that doesn't bother me. Fellowship and fun are more important virtues than winning...we aren't being paid to play this game.

there you go!

Also, I saw Sweetka mentioning Canton as the site again...and I thought that was not going to the be the case. If it is, then I think you should expect to see some support dropping off out west.

Didn't mean to offend or determine where we play. But the MFCA sent two board members out to the Open Run. I plan on being there next year. It's our job to support what you do in my opinion, not dictate. My understanding is the CBSMF is coming your way which is the only reason you guys showed up in Canton in the first place. Let's make sure we understand why Cali was in the house. It was due to your participation in a league, that played to your style, AT the MFCA convention.

Just my thoughts.

[Megawattz]

Relax Kenny this is a discussion meant to address areas of concern that has been plaguing our hobby for quite some time. Namely dropping participation and the causes. I dont think u quite understand what is actually taking place, this is not to change anything existing, simply to explore "NEW" ways of attacking common issues, along side the MFCA. No ones tryin to take your shine, if u have nothing new or constructive to offer please. I hear u guys out West your input is greatly appreciated & needed. Any and all constructive comments are welcomed, & encouraged. If you feel this isnt something u can support, no comments please, nay sayers time is up. We got the floor now!

[Geno H]

It seems to me reading through this thread I get the impression we are all in agreement that Tournament participation is down. It also seems to me one party is offering up a solution that directly attacks that problem. ?????? Am I right???? I am trying to get a grasp, as these types of threads actually get painfully redundant in the past. If we can "fuse" together a "PRO CIRCUIT" with existing and WILLING Tournaments across the Nation (regardless of ruleset) it seems that would be some serious motivation to the local grass roots coaches to participate in thier local Tournament. Growth from the bottom up is what we need. Knowing that placing well in your local tournament also could give you a chance to officially quailify for a national playoff will fuel the fire of alot of coaches.

Am I even close to understanding what is being offered???????

Megawatts????????


Geno H

[Megawattz]

Originally Posted by Geno H

It seems to me reading through this thread I get the impression we are all in agreement that Tournament participation is down. It also seems to me one party is offering up a solution that directly attacks that problem. ?????? Am I right???? I am trying to get a grasp, as these types of threads actually get painfully redundant in the past. If we can "fuse" together a "PRO CIRCUIT" with existing and WILLING Tournaments across the Nation (regardless of ruleset) it seems that would be some serious motivation to the local grass roots coaches to participate in thier local Tournament. Growth from the bottom up is what we need. Knowing that placing well in your local tournament also could give you a chance to officially quailify for a national playoff will fuel the fire of alot of coaches.

Am I even close to understanding what is being offered???????

Megawatts????????


Geno H

I think if a real effort was made this could be a formula for progress, we must remind ourselves that we cant do it alone, by giving the guys that do the hard work a real stake in something with national implications, that can be measured, with a structure designed to increase cooperation & participation, we may be able to reverse some of the recent trends. I feel Rules should be the domain of the coaches for they are the ones that has to live with whatever is decided, freeing the MFCA from such a devisive issue, will serve to empower the MFCA as they are now truly a neutral party on the rules issue. Each "Region or Tourny" would have a represetative on a rules committee, representing the styles of play for that region. They would draft the rules together, with the MFCA overseeing the process. Those rules are then adopted by the MFCA as the official "PRO LEAGUE RULESET" ratiffied on a yearly bases, allowing for easy review & amendment if needed. At this point rules arent on the table, the cooperation of regions is first on the to do list, Ive contacted various Organizers, with verbal commitments from "MOZEEK THE BAM NY REGION", DEARELL BREVARD BELTSVILLE, "MIKE ROBERTSON SOUTH WEST REGION" "JIM DAVIS GREAT LAKES MID-WEST", this is just a start, I need someone to represent "OPEN RUN WEST COAST", cant reach "DAVE NICKLES BAMA BLAST DEEP SOUTH" any info on how to reach him will be greatly appreciated. These guys were chosen because, they already run a TOURNY or LEAGUE with major support, have an active members list already established, & have displayed dedication essential to success. This in no way is set in stone, only a place to get started. any Major events or areas with significant membership, that may have been overlooked please make yourself known.

[broncoman]

but you have to think back to PHILLY MIGGLE convention when I and other coaches sat down on a FRIDAY night to put together a nation rule set. it worked for MIGGLE, but coaches still did not opt to use these rules in there rules. then came REGGIE'S TEXAS SHOOT-OUT-RULES and most LEAGUES have gone to these rules. I for one have played all the different rules in my travels in tournaments.
KEN, coaches came west to play in CANTON to compete, not because the CBSMF will be in LAS VEGAS next year. love to see you in L.A. next year at the OPEN RUN.



BRONCOMAN