The Reason for Pass Simulation (stick passing)
 

Before the whole passing stick thing gets out of hand i'd like to explain the purpose.

One. For all coaches who are saying that pass simulation is for people that can't pass with a TTQB, your point is incorrect. The idea of pass simulation is to mimic the football action of a reciever running through the defense from the spot where he is to the spot where the pass is being thrown. It gives the defense a chance to make a play on the football which is not really given in TTQB only passing.

What coaches have to understand is that there are a variety of methods for moving the football in the passing game. A bullet pass is what I would consider a TTQB pass, while a lead the receiver pass is the pass simulation or passing stick method. That is it. No reason to debate one over the other. The stick passing system has been assimilated into virtually ALL leagues and is here to stay.

The passing simulation method was designed for multi-stop MPFL football and is best used in that system. I can see why some of the one-stop pitch or pass coaches would see this as a problem as most of the players are generally rushing forward on defense and have limited ability to move or adjust their angles, pursuit, ect. Making it easier to complete a pass spells doom in that style of play so point taken.

I'd encourage all coaches to continue with the awesome innovations that are currently pushing the game of EF / MF forward rather than keeping it back with traditions that limit the options of the player. The goal that we in the MPFL share is to have this game to play as close to real NFL football as possible. That concept introduces dramatic changes and revisions to the game from the board size, to the timing of the quarters, to the enforcement of the penalties, to the xs and os of the game. In this case, we are moving toward a more realistic chess match with regard to options for passing the football. TTQB, and Pass Simulation. The option is up to the coach and varies greatly according to the situation. For example, if you are an accurate TTQB passer throwing inside the 15 yd line, it is a good look to use the TTQB to bullet the pass through the coverage. Catch...and TD. In situations where you are trailing late in the game, you'll want to throw deeper passes. Lob it up and let the WR go and get it. The defense also gets a chance to move for in for the interception.

Attempts to stymie coaches by saying that stick passing is unskilled or easy in some way is to show a lack of understanding of how the game is currently played and the options that are available in the new EF.

If you guys aren't careful, you're going to end up in my next "greatest haters" poll.

I agree. To each his own. House rules are more than cool. As long as everyone agrees to them BEFORE the game, tournament or league starts.

With a great deal of respect...
 

With all do respect...all leagues do not use passing sticks and the HHEFL certainly doesn't. I talked with Anthony yesterday about the MPFL system and BigFranco is right...house rules are cool. Maybe once I see the video we might consider using them, my problem with muti-stop is that you are sacrificing stragedy over action. For me...and this is just my opinion, so please no one get upset...for me muti-stop is too much stopping. If you have more than three stops on one play, then it takes two minutes to complete a play. So I guess what I am saying is to make the game more realistic we need to have balance. I am going to get the video from Anthony,then I am going to try to tweak the system a little bit to fit my need for "perpetual motion".

I do love the concept of leading a receiver...has anyone ever considered "muti-speed". Wouldn't it be cool if during a play you could press a button to make the board slow way down and actually try to complete the pass to a moving target! I have tried it and you want to talk about realistic!

Anyway, keep up the good discussion that is how we advance...new and better ideas. I will get my money out to you this week Anthony if you are reading this and thanks again for the phone call...it is always a pleasure talking with you.

Pass Simulation/Emulation...
 

Fellas,

There's no need for controversy here! This is a passing method designed by Anthony Burgess for his Weighted Multi-Stoppage System. And that's O.K.!
The TTQB is cumbersome to many. It requires hand and dexterity that many donot posse and requires years of practice. Look at all of the great passers;they have been doing this for years! A great TTQB passer only needs to get one man open and he can move the ball even if his team is not that good or well tweaked. Many will say , "Hey, I'm a great coach!" Believe what you want. Passing sticks keeps jokers honest! If you have a well tweaked team. A team with receivers who are straight and fast, I guarantee' they will double team your players or try to hold they at the LOS! They know that if your player completes a stick pass, chances are they can't catch them once the pass is complete! Pass placement was designed to keep the game/ball on the board. It always receivers to run routes. It allows the defense an honest play on the ball and it forces the offense to make the right decison. It keeps the game moving, active and fun. There are many variations of the "stick pass" since it was adopted by leagues across the country,but the rules must be clear and effective. The real question for those of us who play One stop, picth or pass is "Turning Players and the Clock"! HHmmm?:mad:

Get the Facts Straight
 

I would be interested to know what 99 out of 100 leagues use pass placement? If there is factual information to this knowledge, I would be surprised but definitely would want to know. With EFLers, nothing surpises me but I was just curious when I read the one post regarding that.

I guess we need to stop having the Texas Shootout because the DFW is the only league that plays with the TTQB!

Slow Down CowPoke!
 

Reggie, Reg,

Many leagues/tournaments use only the TTQB. I can't get my big jumbo's around the figure right. I've practiced and practiced ,but I can't pull of that shot all the time. You know how us BIG dudes do it! Sometime you gotta hold d'em down and stuff that turkey instead of slicing it! Pass simulation incombination with a TTQB is the only way to go. Other that that I'm gonna run on yah all day long partner! And it will be the LONGEST DAY YOU'll eber Play! Ain't that right Jim Davis! Haw Haw Haw! PILLGrimmm!:cool:

Tron, it's great we can disagree and still be Best of Friends
 

Tron,

You know we're boys and the great thing about the game is you can agree to disagree. But I guess one of the things that PO's guys off is this thing about guys thinking that if they scream the loudest, that becomes the authority, or the intimidation of do it my way or you don't get it.

Personally, I don't care for it. Like Mike said, I think it's a crutch for spending the time working on your game. But if that's what keeps you active in a game, that's all good. But you know Dawg, I hate when guys come on here with total fallacies, thinking anyone will believe what they say! I need factual information showing that.

To some, the TTQB is cumbersome but most who had trouble as kids throwing with the passer has taken that into their adult life. All I know is that when you've got a room full of people standing over you, in the comforts of a small scale stadium, and the clock is running down for you to throw the pass and make the play, it is not as easy as it looks!

It's a very difficult proposition. I have seen so-called great TTQB passers struggle going 6-27 in passing! So it's not a given that if a man is open, you should be able to hit him.

I have vowed never to play in competitions where I can not use the skills that I have worked on for many years if the other coach does not have to utilize that same skill. It would not be worth my time and efforts. But if time permit and the guy has shown me luv, I definitely would come and support the game.
I think to each his own but I do think guys need to have "the facts" before throwing out blanket statements. Just my opinon.

Reg

Reggie...
 

Reggie..please check your pm I have an important message for you...

don't use the sticks as a crutch!
 

Miggle and TSO are two out of the 5 or 6 major tournaments throughout the year that do not use the sticks. That is about 40% of the major tournaments that will not allow the sticks. The Bama Blast started using the sticks about three years ago. The creators of the Bama Blast thought long and hard about the sticks and I think it was actually voted down the first year it was brought up. I am glad that some tournaments do not allow the sticks because it provides for a different way of playing - more traditional efl.

For me, the sticks provide some added strategy. I've noticed that it makes you keep your safeties honest because you certainly don't want the receivers to get behind you with the chance of hitting the sticks on a long bomb. I also like the excitement using the passing sticks. It is very exciting to me to see a receiver and a defender go for the ball. It also increases the need for speedy defenders which I like. It also creates pass interference plays which creates excitement!

I have noticed (especially beginner coaches) will use the sticks as a crutch. All coaches need to listen to this: YOU MUST BE A GOOD TO GREAT PASSER WITH THE TTQB TO BE SUCCESSFUL in the major EF tournaments! All you have to do is look at the past champions in all of the tournaments for the past 5-6 years. If you can pass with the TTQB, you will increase your chances to win immensely. And with the skill that you gain by throwing the ball, you can still use the sticks if you need to! :)

beenutt

Three Leagues I know for sure
 

....Reg the LAEFL, LVEFL and the Tri-Valley Football Club all use the TTQB and would never consider the sticks unless someone has a disability, other then that we use the skill side of the game. TTQB all the way baby!!! I have to say that I think that the sticks are a crutch but everyone is entitled to their own set of rules. As a community this is one of the things that separates us from each other is that some don't like the TTQB and some do.

Believe me when I first got back into the Hobby I couldn't pass worth a ----!!! Then came a day I started practicing and figured out how to get this thing going. I was told in my first year I wasn't going to win a game, I lost 1 game the whole season and went 16-1 and won the LAEFL championship. Since my first year when I was in the adolescence stage of passing, I led the league in passing every year after that and believe me no-one keeps just one safety back against RJ now. So to me that is the joy of the game, because with that skill it makes people defend you differently and keeps them honest.

To me everyone has their way of playing but my way is the TTQB!!!

Just my nickel's worth!!!

Discrimination
 

Thanks Tron
 

Let it be proclaimed....
 

Fellas,
Reggie, there's no controversy that will ever break our bond of friendship! I have many friends who don't like me any more ,but they are my friends wether they want to be or not! Besides, how could anyone not like me? It's not possible. Any way, B:mad: eenut has the right idea! Further more, if some joker puts the sticks on the board against me, he better know that pass is going to be a pick and if he TTQB passes, that dude better be gone or my boys will walk that chump down! Play weighted! Nuff said!:mad:
By the way,
Thanks for the board Reggie! With a few modifications I will begin my total domination of all weigthed leagues and divisions 2008! Killer Bees are coming!:cool:

I can't really say any more on the subject than what I already said. As usual the real message of the post was lost to arguments of "this versus that."

No need to mention that the purpose was to answer the question of a board member, and not to get in to this type of thing. Passing sticks are universal in MD leagues as far as I know, and in some of the PA leagues. That is my home town so I'm speaking on my own experience. If my point of view is excluding a particular segment, then it is unintentional. Please allow me to answer the question of this individual without turning these posts over to subjects of personal nature.

Once again, passing sticks (when used) are designed to offer the coach an option of ways in which he will pass the football. Both methods are used in accordance with the personal likes and dislikes of the coach, and dictated by the situation on the field. In MPFL, our game boards are 5 ft long (60"), we have multi-stops so that the coaches can adjust their blocking and pursuit, runners and QBs can move and reverse, ect. You are able to use magnets during the play at times to hold your position in the offensive backfield, and on defense to hold linebackers and safties so passing sticks are used to wedge the ball into coverage, throw deep, short, and attach spots on the field.

I'm exhausted and am sorry I wrote this post in the first place.

Jimbo's Illinois Season
 

...has incorporated a few things form here and there, including multi-stop and a modified passing system.

I don't like the sticks, but I see the NEED to allow DBs to play the pass. Jamming a WR 20yds into the backfield IS NOT football. That's Defensive Holding on EVERY play!!!

Why is EVERYONE afraid to let the WRs do what they're supposed to do - run downfield???

SOLUTION 1: CBs are NOT allowed to be on TTCs.

SOLUTION 2: Stay on your own side of the field and learn how to throw "underhanded" or "backhanded!"

SOLUTION 3: If "pass" is called, DBs move alongside WRs and "escort them downfield.

SOLUTION 4 (ILLINOIS' Season): Snap-n-Bump; turn CBs/DBs, QB dropback (see below); pass to open WR or scramble some more while WRs/DBs adjust to deeper routes; pass to WR with DB legally draped over him to break-up the ball in the air.

Second part of the equation is the QB Dropback. In a REAL playcall, the QB-drop is incorporated and the OL have to account for a 3, 4, 5 or 7 yard drop. 95% of the sacks are blind-sides! Favre didn't tell Strahan to "Freeze!" right before he made the record-breaking sack. :confused: Why do we? Instead of using different length sticks for WRs to run to, we're gonna use different dropback chutes to simulate the different dropback distances. This way gives the QB a choice on how far he can dropback before getting blasted, but it limits the amount of separation the WRs can get. It also means WRs are less likely to be unchaperoned downfield and it gives the D some credit for good coverage/pass rush. Everyone's happy. QB still has a little control, but D doesn't get burned with their backs turned.

So, count me as NOT using sticks. Peace.

Well, many of the Natl. leagues are weighing in on this which basically backs up what I was saying. Stick passing on a multi-stop platform, on a scale-sized game board works wonders. In it's true form, it works to perfection, is logical, and better simulates what you see on television. There are many things being done by leagues and coaches across the country from the use of dice, cards, and other random props. No one acuses these individuals of using crutches. We call our own plays, and the players execute their own injuries, penalties, and turnovers. That is just how we do it. Now go and do it the way you do it.

In any event, I couldn't be happier with what we are doing here. My work on the MPFL website and DVD are testimonies to my committment to share this challenging and fun game with others. I am not paid to work on this stuff but do it out of the sheer enjoyment that I have gotten. Were it not for things like pass placement and multi-stops, I would not be in this hobby.

There are enough people out there who are wise enough to detect the sarcasm and bitterness with these board post replies.

I will continue to work hard to answer any and all questions that I am able to either in verbal or pictoral format. Whether they be about paint colors, strategy elements of football, computer support, or any other area in which I have been helped by others, I will also continue to help. Dispite the negativity and attempts to discredit.

UNCLE rEGGIE
 

WE HAVE BOTH IN OUR LEAGUE, BUT THE ADVANCING COACHES ARE THE ONES WHO CAN COMPLETE A ttqb PASS.......

KY/TN leauge
 

We use the TTQB in our leauge. So if you use the sticks, you rarly have an incompletion do you? I was just trying to figure it out. The one time I've played with them, zero incompletions. Now, you can still use the ttcqb with the sticks right?

passing
 

I am not posting this to weigh in on any System of play, but on the specific question of using passing sticks, I do like the system as you can sit back and watch the play develop and your Db's can brake on the ball (and get a pick) and you can throw it to an area, not just the receiver, like in real football. I like the SWB rules at they allow you to use both. In the G.L., you have to throw the ball. Its a skill that's just a part of the game.

Ultimately, I love the target passing as it incorporates both passing and the sticks. I hope that we can get the targets into our league or maybe the college summer league.

Right
 

I'm learing I'm learning...I just need to see it in play....no matter what you use, or do. We should all come into it with an open mind. Nobodys is right, nobody is wrong. Its a hobby we all enjoy...have fun!!! I want to learn both ways..as beenutt said, depending on the tourny you have to be able to do both. So, I want to be good at all ways to pass....

Amen
 

This is a hobby I enjoy. People get upset over silly things sometimes...to me..there is no right or wrong. There is great fun and fellowship. Meet new friends, not make new enemies. I'm happy to learn anyway I can to play. Whos right? Who knows? Who Cares? Since getting back into miniature football, a year ago, Ive seen people say this person is right or this person is wrong. Do what you like, how you like it. The big thing is....JUST HAVE FUN. I keep posting about advice for the tourny I'm gonna have, the battle of the bluegrass. I never get a response on any help or what people would like to see. I want the house rules to be everyones imput. I want it to be like no other tourny, just need some help. SO, does anyone have ideas for me...please...LOL... House rules rock....just have fun.
WORD!!!!

My Grandmother Used To Say...
 

6 in one hand
1/2 dozen in the other.

Crutch
 

My grandma used to say:

"************ in one hand and wish in the other and see which one fills up first".

Good ol' grandma, of course she said it in Italian, not until I was older did I realize what she was saying all those years.

I my opinion, passing sticks are in no way a crutch, they can be and are used by some as a crutch, but that is the person's perogative. Any man worth his salt should know how to use the TTQB, there is no doubt about it. The sticks have a place too though, but in serious MF the TTQB will always rule. I have brought the game to work in the past and some dudes were all pumped up, we played at lunch a time or two and they could not get the TTQB, in this instance the sticks made for some exciting games.

You have to learn the TTQB again, but the sticks can make for some good ball in the mean time. The other good thing about them is they can be adapted to many different rule sets and hybrid versions of play. They are a good thing!

That's my two cents worth!

Shabby J

Guys,
After talking on the phone one night with the great Mike Pratt, he said that the style of play we use in our solitaire league was "perfect" for pass...I don't even know what you call it yet (simulation, emulation, evolution...whatever). I told him he was absolutely nuts, that would never happen! I LOVE the TTQB, he is the one piece of equipment that gets you on the field. Plus, I have always been a fairly accurate passer, so I like being good at something.

However, the more we played, the more we thought about it. In our style, DBscannot run forward and hold the WR at the line of scrimmage (perhaps we should allow the Cowboys to do that, since the NFL does too). We HAVE to play zones, drop our DBs back, and play coverage. With TTQB passing though, there was almost always an open receiver with few players around them, so we adapted rules to make it harder to pass. We had a very liberal sack and pressure rule that meant you could only have the board on a short time. We also added a rule that the pass was complete to the LAST person it touched, so if you threw a "bullet" pass and hit the WR, but it ricochets and bounced on the ground and then hit a defensive player, it was an interception. That kept it workable, but not ideal.

Finally, we experimented with pass ******** in our league. Pratt was right, it was SO much more enjoyable! Now, we were playing those zones, but the DBs could make a move towards the ball. It made absolute sense! I still miss throwing with the TTQB once in a while, but the trade-off is well worth it.

Now here is my issue in tournaments and leagues...I don't mind playing by either style, just definitely NOT both!!! The things you do defensively to try and stop TTQB passing are completely different than what I would do against pass placement. Using both is the BIGGEST crutch EVER! It in no way rewards the defense. If your coverage is tight, TTQB; if not, pass placement...that stinks! Pick one, argue its merits, and play with it!

Just my one cent (I'm a teacher, I can't afford two cents),
Mark

PS. For those who are looking for more than one stop play, but not willing to invest the time to play multi-stop, give me an e-mail. I have some cool rules for our solitaire league you might just like. It has all the individuality of one-stop, where the players dictate game play but with much more realism built into the game. Before anyone worries, I could care less if someone plays the game my way or not. I will not be on here pitching my style constantly, but I have borrowed so much from you guys, I feel like if someone finds something they like from what we do, that would be like giving back.