General Passing Question #2
 

Yo Mr. Burgess,

Your previous thread is locked, so I thought I would start another so that I could get my 2 cents worth in. If we need to talk off-line, just give me a holla, but as I undertand it, this if for the newbie. So, here hear goes nothing:



For as long as I have been in this hobby I have seen a hole lot of thing pertaining to the passing and what many seem to focus on.
Your perception may not be everybody else’s reality.[/color][/b]

Many focus on the ball in flight from the QB to the receiver, and that is all that they focus on.
I have no clue on who you have spoken with on this issue, but any good passer knows that they can’t pass the ball to a player who is not open. Furthermore, this person(s) would also know that you can’t pass the ball if you don’t have the time to pass the ball. An even better coach knows how to make the appropriate adjustments (no matter how simple or intricate) to get receivers open and buy time.

But what about the other areas of the passing game? Do the have no value?
It’s like Rague, my man… IT’S IN THERE! Many areas of the passing game exists in EF/MF/BB. Search and you shall find. As they say about the lottery, you have to play to win. Well, perhaps, taking the same approach here would work as well. To answer all your questions, perhaps it would be better understood and realized if played under the various different rule-sets this wonderful and be-loved hobby of ours has to offer.

What about the defenders right to make a play on the ball?
It's in there. I don't really have a lot of time to respond to this one, but it become very evident when you play the game.


What about combination routes run by the receiver?
If you TWEAK a base properly and place it on the right figure, one can achieve these ZIN like feats. In this game, you can’t really get away with testing a lot of bases by just letting them run straight out of the bag until you get one you might think will work. It takes coaches like, Norbert Revels, Jim Davis, Kenny Allen, Mike Pratt, Kelvin Lomax (just to name a few), that are masters of the TWEAK to get bases to perform such feats. Never-the-less… it can be done and happens more often than some may think.

What about the receiver, or defender catching the ball? ( If the QB throws it "TTQB" then what about the receiver catching it ? and this done in real time the same as running the ball )
Not sure if I understand.

What about the QB buying time in the pocket?
This can be achieved with the usage of the standstill base, roll-out QB and the implementation of what some call the “scramble rule.” I am sure I’ve left a few things out, but remember, where there is a will, there is a way.

What about the QB's progression ? 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th reads?
When no pressure or very little to late pressure is applied, you can make the progressions necessary to pick your best option. Sometimes you can intentionally look over the first receiver when in need of a bigger play. You can also decide to hit the open receiver later as opposed to when he first break-open. Again, these things can be done, are done, but not talked about as often as other aspects of the game.

It seems to me that when one thinks or talks about the ttqb or other form of this type of passing, then why is all the other parts of the passing game not as important?
It’s all important. There is more to the passing game in EF/MF/BB than meets the eye. What some choose to spend most of their time talking about is of no consequence to the realities of what actually exists in this game.

Is it right to focus on the flight of the ball only, and not value the other areas
1, Pass routes run - It’s in there
A: Combination routes - It’s in there
B: Open area in a zone - It’s in there
2, Defenders right to the ball - It’s in there
3, Defensive pass rush ie pressure - It’s in there
4, Offensive line men picking up the blitz - It’s in there
5, QB buying time in the pocket, ie moving around - It’s in there
6, QB's progression – It’s in there
A: 1st Receiver
B: 2nd receiver
C: 3rd receiver
D: 4th receiver
E: QB pulling the ball down and running

These are all apart of the passing game in football, however they are not being reflected in a game that is suppose to " Play like real football "
The above listed items are reflected heavily, I might add, in every EF/MF/BB game I’ve ever played. But, only certain things are talked about more than other. Maybe that’s more of a behavioral question than anything else.

I thought that this would be a good question to ask seeing that there might be new member to this hobby and this might help them to understand the passing game in this hobby
I appreciate your concern for the newbie. I also would like the newbie to know, or at least, have a better sense of the answer(s) to the question(s) you’ve brought forward.
To sum this all up, I believe it all comes down to your perception being your reality. One’s perception is further enhanced when one chooses to use their imagination with an open mind. Instead of just smelling and tasting the flavor of the Rague, perhaps one should experience all that’s involved in making the Rague. I am sure there have been many minor improvements/changes to some of the different types of Rague in the past 20 years or so. I mean this in the most positive way. An open mind and imagination can go a long way in understanding re-enforcing some of the answers/responses to what you have brought forward. Seek and you shall find, but only with an open mind.

-Adrian-
Leader of the Silver Surfers

Combination Routes
 

If you TWEAK a base properly and place it on the right figure, one can achieve these ZIN like feats. In this game, you can’t really get away with testing a lot of bases by just letting them run straight out of the bag until you get one you might think will work. It takes coaches like, Norbert Revels, Jim Davis, Kenny Allen, Mike Pratt, Kelvin Lomax (just to name a few), that are masters of the TWEAK to get bases to perform such feats. Never-the-less… it can be done and happens more often than some may think.


Adrian: You're my friend and you gave a thoughful reply. I do have to question the "combination route" principal, though on bases with prongs. Physics would tell me that on a flat board this would not be possible. A base is either higher or lower and unless the prong is changing throughout the route, it would not be able to reliably start out facing straight, go one direction and then the other.

I've seen some bases that "jump" a bit to the side off the switch before they move, but I'd hardly classify that as a change directions kind of route.

You are probably right Tom
 

First, I guess I need to know what a combination route is, hah.

I have seen a players, when not met with much resistance, start off straight, make contact with a cornerback slide to the left go straight for a bit slant to the left and then curve right. Maybe I am just dreaming, but I believe I've seen stuff like this before. I believe you call these type of bases "squirley" bases. They tend to do some unbeliveable things. Sometimes not so consistent though, but it happens.

-Adrian-
:) :) :D :) :)

Hey Guys
 

Option Route
 

Combo Route is when two different receivers in most cases on the same side of the field run one route over the top or underneathe to occupy the safety and then the second receiver runs a route off of that read of the safety or THE secondary......

one receiver having the choice of which route he is going to run based on his read of the secondary is called an option route......
but being that we have less intelligence than those that play your style i could be wrong...but i doubt it.......

COME ON MAN THAT WAS TOO EASY

ADRIAN AND RUES...VERY GOOD POINTS.........

.
 

Anthony - did you try passing the way i explained?

Adrian - Well stated. Even if I don't see it completely the way you do. But isn't that the REAL attraction of this hobby - the way we each look at the same thing but see it in a slightly different to completely different way? If we use our imagination, everything football related IS in there. And beauty IS in the eye of the beholder. :::::segue::::: Has anyone told you lately that you have a beautiful mind? ;)

TomKat - If I read your method correctly, I tried it. Hopefully I followed the directions in the desired manor. From what I understand it looks and feels very much like the NHFL ATTAC passing method but with a reverse twist. I.E., instead of throwing an accurate pass first (hitting the ATTAC passing target before going to the ball), you have the receiver and defenders react to the planned route. If the receiver hits the ball the O coach then has to hit the target (an accurate pass). If a defender hits the ball then the D coach attempts the pass. While having the D coach throw that pass may seem very awkward to many, it makes perfect gaming sense. It would be a completely fair way to resolve the situation. IF I understand it all correctly,,,,, If I got it wrong it wouldn't be the first time. Feel free to throw rotten veggies and soured fruit at me. mtmstnks

In gaming terms, replication techniques and styles of play fall into the three basic categories: 1) Arcade - Let er rip from start to finish. 2) Simulation - Stopping the action only for tactical purposes, be it basic or technical, yet certainly limited. 3) Reenactment - A blow by blow total reproduction of an action or event. Usually reserved for history buffs wanting to replicate an exact historical event. Sometimes used with specific historical situations, giving each side/team a chance to see what they would do in that exact situation.

Hobbyists and casual gamers are usually attracted to arcade, simulation or a concoction/mix thereof. Gamers are usually attracted to simulation, reenactment or a concoction/mix thereof. The "RIGHT" method to use is the one that gets you on the board with good company to have a good time. The rest may seem important to us on a more personal level. But I assure you, it IS far less important how you choose to replicate pass plays than it is who you are sharing board time with.

Fun, Food, Friends,
-Mike Pratt

Correcting My Error
 

I have made an error in my explanation. The definition is correct, however the word I used was wrong. The correct word is " Option Route "

Now I am sure some got a big kick out of this, I did as well!

It is funny, when I got up at 4 am it hit me, "Bam" I used the wrong word! So when I got to work I got to email from 2 good friends, LOL !

Now I am sending this from my iPhone befor the Captain get in, LOL !!!!

Thanks for the
 

clarification on the combo and option routes Mozeek and Ant.

All I am saying here is that a lot of the things you've brought forward is there. If it happens to be 9 out of 10 or 8 out of ten, it's still there and that's a good thing. Please focus on the positives. Improvements to this style of play is being made gradually. In general, at least in my eyes, I see it. Although receivers do not run crisp routes, they do run routes. Some more consistently than others. The consistency of these things are contigent upon a lot of factors (board vibrations, board speed, defensive schemes, etc...). Most newbies I speak with have not been as tecnical or critical. They are more impressed by how far we've come in the past 20 years or so with various aspects of the hobby, including game play.

So, for the newbies, there are many more aspects of real football that can be found in this game we play today, more so than before. As for the people that want more... there is always another way to play the game. But, if you decide the play EF/MF/BB, with the right people and attitude, it can be a whole lot of FUN!!!:chr:

To everyone that has expressed and opinion on this post, I appreciate it. I am now finished with this subject.

Oh, and BTW, I meant Ragu in my previous post.

Thanks again fellas. Peace!

-Adrian-
:) :) :D :) :)

Passing
 

Well said, guys.

I do respect and appreciate the many different ways that this game is played. More importantly, I enjoy the fellowship and friendship of the guys whom I meet at tourneys, etc.

Let's keep bangin' new ideas and recycling worthwhile ones. My only note is watch the tone of the posts...guys like me and others will probably react to any inference that we are less evolved or strategic by playing a certain way.

Q: Why do democrats have more children than Republicans?
A: Anyone ever hear of someone enjoying a good piece of elephant??

I have a similar twist yet slightly different.

When I have an open receiver to lead, I set up a passing target. If I hit the target with the TDQ then I get to use the shortest lead passing stick. So, the receiver still has to run to the ball. But if you make a good pass, and you use the shortest stick, your odds of completion are higher.

However, if I miss the target, the receiver still has a chance to make a play. But you have to use the longest lead stick, which makes it tougher to complete.

So you are rewarded for making accurrate passes but in both cases you still let the receiver (and defender) make a play on the ball.

Think about it....in real football, QB's make good throws and bad throws but in ALL cases, the receivers and defenders continue to make a play regardless of how accurrate the pass is. The better the pass....the better the chance to make a play....which is what I have created.

Just my version of how to do it.

(in case anyone was interested in my opinion....which you probably aren't!!)

Ktown,
I find that a very realistic look on passing. Sometimes a bad pass can be caught by a tremendous effort from the reciever.thmbsp$ Great job well thought out! ppls$ ppls$ ppls$ ppls$


Geno H

Geno, TAEFL rule??? I like it also.

Hmmm. I think i like that alot. i was fooling around with something where if you hit the target and it spins up field, you can reposition the wr. if it spins backwards against the route of the wr, then the play is stopped there, to simulate a bad pass that is caught, but the wr has no time to advance.

but i like your style in theory much better. i think i will try that.thmbsp$ thmbsp$

Wow
 

Thanks guys....

Always nice to get props from the community!!

That is what I love that the most about this board. It gives us a place to share ideas and create new ones by collaborating and discussion.

I've taken away so much from the board already....glad I could finally contribute!!

Wolf,
Yep....thats what I was thinking.......thmbsp$


Geno H

I like this idea bigtime, and will be using it in my college solitare league, thank you for sharing this.

Norbert Revels

Passing
 

I like the idea...very innovative.

One twist that could be interesting is that you could say that if you missed the target on the throw and had to run to the stick that the ball would be set out straight toward the goal line. This could end up being closer to the defender but it would be subjective and consistent.

What that does is eliminate the "shield" that guys do to prevent the defender from catching the ball. They angle it precisely so the defender has to go through the receiver, etc.

Nice twist, .........
 

Before anyone gets their undies all wadded up, I am just asking a question so I can understand how this intriguing way of passing works.

I have a question for ktowner, ............. I like the idea too, ..................but how do you determine where to put the target?

If you hit the target, ..............do you move the receiver closer to the target/ball or move the target/ball closer to the receiver?

I'll do a seperate post to expand on other things I do in passing but when leading a receiver I place the target out in front of the WR using the small passing stick distance to the spot where I intend to throw to. I basically place the target to the spot I want to literally lead the WR to considering an accurrate pass. If I hit the target, I place the ball exactly where the target was. I adjust my player (and defense), turn the board on and have my WR (and his defender) make a play to it.

If I miss the target, I use the longer passing stick to establish a new spot of the ball (since it was a poor pass). I use the same angle and starting point, but use a longer stick.

Now the player has a lot further to go to make the play....but he has a chance. It also gives the defender more of an opportunity to make a play. Or it gives a safety more of a chance to come over and make a play. Again, all because of a poor (inaccurate) pass.

Now....when playing on a 620 or a big board, you will need to determine the 2 distances that fit your board the best. I use the short and middle distance sticks from Buzzball. I actually started experimenting just doubling the short stick distance on a missed pass (since the middle stick is 3x as long as the short stick). I find the long sticks to be too much on a 620 especially on crossing patterns and in routes. It lets 3-4 defenders come into play which isn't fair or realistic. The 2 sticks I got with the ATTAC passing work well on a 620 but they are smaller than the short and middle sticks from Buzzball and wouldn't create much of a disadvantage for a poorly thrown pass IMO.

.
 

How many chances do you give the QB? When Favre throws, he only throws once. A bad pass is a bad pass, no second chances. IMO. The magnet signifies where the ball will go, if the receiver misses it, that is a bad pass.

Just to let you all know....I do other things in the passing game as well. The method I have been detailing is simply when I am leading a WR on a crossing route, in route, out route, flag pattern, post pattern, fly pattern, etc. It's what I use when I want to trust the speed and route of my player to run under the ball and make a play.

I use regular TDQ passing when I do not want to lead a WR and simply throw to the WR where he stands. This would be like throwing to a back shoulder or a WR screen or to a WR setting in a soft spot in the zone. In these cases, since I am throwing to a stationary WR without leading him, I give the defense about a second (quick turn of power on then off) to react to the completed pass since the WR had to stop momentum to wait for the ball to arrive.

If I hit the WR (leg and higher) it is complete. I replace the WR with the passing target and give the defense a chance to "tackle" the target/player immediately following the catch. If no tackle is made...both offensive and defensive players can adjust for a run after the stationary catch. If I miss everything=incomplete. If I hit the defender below the waste, it is a pass deflection. If I hit the defender above the waste...it is an interception. Remember defensive players are NOT as good at making catches (or they would be WRs) ....which is why they play defense....so the ball must hit them in a spot where they are sure to make the catch.

I also do not use the longer stick on a comeback route. Again, if I run a WR 10-15yds down field and throw a comback route approx. 5yds back towards the line and miss the target....the WR would then have to go 15 yds (approx. all the way back to the line of scrimmage) to make the catch...which he wouldnot do or would it make sense. So, on a comeback route, if I miss the target, it's simply an incomplete pass.

I guess my whole passing theory is complicated.....but I originally just wanted to share how I "lead" receivers as that is what seemed to apply at the time to the discussion taking place.

No...I agree.

One chance to make an accurate pass....and one chance for the WR to make a play on the pass. Remember WRs drop good passes all of the time. The QB can make a good pass and the WR can still botch the play.

Again...that's why I like doing it this way. Both the QB and the WR must do their job. One can help the other or disappoint the other....just like in football.

Hey KTown49er
 

When you get a chance, can you PM me your complete way of the passing game you use ?

Norbert

I've never really put it all in writing before....other than what I just put in the posts in this thread. It's just how me and a buddy of mine have evolved into playing it over time.

Most everything is detailed in the few posts earlier but I'll try to put it together in a more easy to read rules format for you. Just give me a day or two (or so) to get it together and I'll shoot something to you.

nah man
 

dont pm norbert - POST IT UP BABY!!!
i want to see this. i really like what i have read. i am ready to stay up late tonight and try this out.
FOR ALL TO SEE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl: :rtfl:

Thank you

Norbert

Man!
 

KTown is really on to something here. I'll be trying this out in my solitaire league as well.

I just got to thinking (probably not a good thing) but if one was using passing sticks, and you want the receiver to run a down and out pattern, how could you do that when placing the passing stick in front of the receiver would spot the ball out of bounds?? That would require the player to run inbounds a good 10 - 15 yards first, instead of straight near the sidelines and turning. mtmstnks Would it make sense to have a special passing stick just for that kind of pass??? :confused: But then, if you did, wouldn't it make it almost automatic to complete that sort of pass if a special short stick was used for those occasions?????? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Again....the way I do it....

The small stick is about the equilavent to 5 yds not 15 yds. If you run an out pattern and make a good throw....you could still make that work. If the receiver starts 5 yds in and runs straight downfield, you have just enough room to lead him to the sideline on the out route. If you do not hit the target though, then yes, by default the pass would be considered out of bounds and uncatchable. Because missing the target= a bad pass which would make you use the longer stick which would go out of bounds.

But again...that's just like a real out pattern. If the throw isn't perfect, you can't make that patten work. QBs will tell you athat is the hardest throw to make....so it would be here too. You would have to make a perfect pass and hit the target to give your receiver a chance to make the play on an out route.


Or....if on the way down field the WR doesn't have the room for you to lead him on an out pattern....you could do what I do and simply throw to the player on a stop route (like I detailed in another) post.

Again....just how I do it.

.
 

We use the short passing stick for under 15 yds and the medium stick for over 15. If the receiver is within the distance of the longest stick, it's a direct pass, no sticks or targets used, so a quick slant or screen can go directly to the receiver. Once the reception is made, then adjustments to unengaged players are made. KTown our thing is throwing at the target second. It is so much more realistic than throwing at it first. The defenders can react and get in the passing lane or get on the receiver for a quick tackle. Hitting the target first negates defensive reactions.

Yes I did
 

Check out the links
 

http://www.mpflfootball.com/football...simulation.htm
http://www.mpflfootball.com/news/003.htm

Hear is a link with more data.

That's what I like about this board. Different opinions and different ideas give us the ability to really do some great things.

What you said about throwing 2nd is very interesting.

But for me....I throw the pass first so that the WR & DB can react and race to the spot (run under the ball) where the ball will be. Again, for me, when you pass to the target first to determine how accurrate the pass is...it then affects how the WR & DB have to work to make a play on the ball (easier for the WR on a good pass...better for the Defense on a poor pass).

That's just me!!!!

.
 

KTown - we used to do it that way. We came up with this and what a difference. Try it. You are doing the same as us, just backwards. The things you are saying positively about your method are ten fold when using the ttqb second.