The BIG Question! Take your gloves off and discuss...

[FrustratedFinFan]

Well....if the so-called "national championship" ends up being based on a set of rules that doesn't really get enough input from each region, then don't expect too much support. I caution folks against making a "national" rule set and trying to impose it on each region. Even if you don't directly impose it into regional events, you encourage some amongst us to push to accept those rules so that they can be more competitive for the national trophy...at the expense of rules that have been in play successfully for quite some time in the region. I really wish we could rotate the championship amongst the regions and then you play by the rules of the host region. Every region gets to be showcased that way and it leads towards unity. Failing that, I suggest a VERY simple set of rules based on the Tudor basics so that one region or another doesn't feel slighted. Isn't that kind of how Miggle worked? I prefer Megawattz' first proposal and fear one group or another pushing their way of play on all of us. Sorry I feel that way, but I have already seen it in action right here in Los Angeles. I am more concerned with the local scene. Travel is expensive and to change the way we play for a relative few doesn't appeal to me. If I travel to play, then I expect to play by the local rules....and that doesn't bother me. Fellowship and fun are more important virtues than winning...we aren't being paid to play this game.

Also, I saw Sweetka mentioning Canton as the site again...and I thought that was not going to the be the case. If it is, then I think you should expect to see some support dropping off out west.

[sweetka]

Originally Posted by FrustratedFinFan

Well....if the so-called "national championship" ends up being based on a set of rules that doesn't really get enough input from each region, then don't expect too much support.

To be honest unless it is shoot-out based I personally don't see getting support at the convention anyways. This is what I believe is the same mentality that dogs the hobby. Rules never get done objectively when this happens because it is not about "input, rather, control. When we go to tournaments most of the guys in Michigan would get together about a week before an run a mini-tournament using the established ruleset. I think someone from Michigan has been to every tournament with exception to the Bama-Blast. I don't remember anyone from here going to a tournament in any region trying to change the rules.

I caution folks against making a "national" rule set and trying to impose it on each region. Even if you don't directly impose it into regional events, you encourage some amongst us to push to accept those rules so that they can be more competitive for the national trophy...at the expense of rules that have been in play successfully for quite some time in the region.

I totally, unequivocally agree with you period.

I really wish we could rotate the championship amongst the regions and then you play by the rules of the host region. Every region gets to be showcased that way and it leads towards unity.

I think that this is something that could really help in moving towards a national ruleset more than any other idea. But this is a take it or leave it proposition. Most people leave it.

Failing that, I suggest a VERY simple set of rules based on the Tudor basics so that one region or another doesn't feel slighted.

The most successful tourneys do this.

Isn't that kind of how Miggle worked?

. . . and Buzzball, Shootout, etc.

I prefer Megawattz' first proposal and fear one group or another pushing their way of play on all of us. Sorry I feel that way, but I have already seen it in action right here in Los Angeles.

Shoot-Out style has a "takeover" mentality wherever I have seen it. Either you take it or leave it.

I am more concerned with the local scene. Travel is expensive and to change the way we play for a relative few doesn't appeal to me. If I travel to play, then I expect to play by the local rules....and that doesn't bother me. Fellowship and fun are more important virtues than winning...we aren't being paid to play this game.

there you go!

Also, I saw Sweetka mentioning Canton as the site again...and I thought that was not going to the be the case. If it is, then I think you should expect to see some support dropping off out west.

Didn't mean to offend or determine where we play. But the MFCA sent two board members out to the Open Run. I plan on being there next year. It's our job to support what you do in my opinion, not dictate. My understanding is the CBSMF is coming your way which is the only reason you guys showed up in Canton in the first place. Let's make sure we understand why Cali was in the house. It was due to your participation in a league, that played to your style, AT the MFCA convention.

Just my thoughts.

[Megawattz]

Relax Kenny this is a discussion meant to address areas of concern that has been plaguing our hobby for quite some time. Namely dropping participation and the causes. I dont think u quite understand what is actually taking place, this is not to change anything existing, simply to explore "NEW" ways of attacking common issues, along side the MFCA. No ones tryin to take your shine, if u have nothing new or constructive to offer please. I hear u guys out West your input is greatly appreciated & needed. Any and all constructive comments are welcomed, & encouraged. If you feel this isnt something u can support, no comments please, nay sayers time is up. We got the floor now!

[Geno H]

It seems to me reading through this thread I get the impression we are all in agreement that Tournament participation is down. It also seems to me one party is offering up a solution that directly attacks that problem. ?????? Am I right???? I am trying to get a grasp, as these types of threads actually get painfully redundant in the past. If we can "fuse" together a "PRO CIRCUIT" with existing and WILLING Tournaments across the Nation (regardless of ruleset) it seems that would be some serious motivation to the local grass roots coaches to participate in thier local Tournament. Growth from the bottom up is what we need. Knowing that placing well in your local tournament also could give you a chance to officially quailify for a national playoff will fuel the fire of alot of coaches.

Am I even close to understanding what is being offered???????

Megawatts????????


Geno H

[Megawattz]

Originally Posted by Geno H

It seems to me reading through this thread I get the impression we are all in agreement that Tournament participation is down. It also seems to me one party is offering up a solution that directly attacks that problem. ?????? Am I right???? I am trying to get a grasp, as these types of threads actually get painfully redundant in the past. If we can "fuse" together a "PRO CIRCUIT" with existing and WILLING Tournaments across the Nation (regardless of ruleset) it seems that would be some serious motivation to the local grass roots coaches to participate in thier local Tournament. Growth from the bottom up is what we need. Knowing that placing well in your local tournament also could give you a chance to officially quailify for a national playoff will fuel the fire of alot of coaches.

Am I even close to understanding what is being offered???????

Megawatts????????


Geno H

I think if a real effort was made this could be a formula for progress, we must remind ourselves that we cant do it alone, by giving the guys that do the hard work a real stake in something with national implications, that can be measured, with a structure designed to increase cooperation & participation, we may be able to reverse some of the recent trends. I feel Rules should be the domain of the coaches for they are the ones that has to live with whatever is decided, freeing the MFCA from such a devisive issue, will serve to empower the MFCA as they are now truly a neutral party on the rules issue. Each "Region or Tourny" would have a represetative on a rules committee, representing the styles of play for that region. They would draft the rules together, with the MFCA overseeing the process. Those rules are then adopted by the MFCA as the official "PRO LEAGUE RULESET" ratiffied on a yearly bases, allowing for easy review & amendment if needed. At this point rules arent on the table, the cooperation of regions is first on the to do list, Ive contacted various Organizers, with verbal commitments from "MOZEEK THE BAM NY REGION", DEARELL BREVARD BELTSVILLE, "MIKE ROBERTSON SOUTH WEST REGION" "JIM DAVIS GREAT LAKES MID-WEST", this is just a start, I need someone to represent "OPEN RUN WEST COAST", cant reach "DAVE NICKLES BAMA BLAST DEEP SOUTH" any info on how to reach him will be greatly appreciated. These guys were chosen because, they already run a TOURNY or LEAGUE with major support, have an active members list already established, & have displayed dedication essential to success. This in no way is set in stone, only a place to get started. any Major events or areas with significant membership, that may have been overlooked please make yourself known.

[broncoman]

but you have to think back to PHILLY MIGGLE convention when I and other coaches sat down on a FRIDAY night to put together a nation rule set. it worked for MIGGLE, but coaches still did not opt to use these rules in there rules. then came REGGIE'S TEXAS SHOOT-OUT-RULES and most LEAGUES have gone to these rules. I for one have played all the different rules in my travels in tournaments.
KEN, coaches came west to play in CANTON to compete, not because the CBSMF will be in LAS VEGAS next year. love to see you in L.A. next year at the OPEN RUN.



BRONCOMAN

[sweetka]

Originally Posted by broncoman

but you have to think back to PHILLY MIGGLE convention when I and other coaches sat down on a FRIDAY night to put together a nation rule set. it worked for MIGGLE, but coaches still did not opt to use these rules in there rules. then came REGGIE'S TEXAS SHOOT-OUT-RULES and most LEAGUES have gone to these rules. I for one have played all the different rules in my travels in tournaments.
KEN, coaches came west to play in CANTON to compete, not because the CBSMF will be in LAS VEGAS next year. love to see you in L.A. next year at the OPEN RUN.



BRONCOMAN

They put us in a room. My point again is that, and you know me, if the rules are tap on the board with a flashlight I play by them. To date, whenever I have left Michigan I have tried to gain knowledge of why people do things the way that they do. I am diversified enough to move out of my comfort zone. Mike, I stated that the coaches came because of the league, not because it was being hosted in Vegas the following year. I for one was all for that and have stood side by side with the Coast on many an issue. This circuit idea is all good with me and I conveyed that to Bruce when he asked me to look in and post yesterday. To be honest I had been to busy to notice it.

Now, in my original post I addressed FOB, ATT, and passing methods. I chose not to throw rulesets out there because in my reading it seemed the slightest dissent has been met with force.

I stated my opinion and if you disagree fine. It is even okay to have an exclusive circuit for the PROS which I am one.

But since it is a PRO league the tournaments need to be run by real referees as the stakes will be very high. Yet another offering

I will go back to working to get average Joe back into the hobby, not the sport!

I will leave you guys to this hard core, or grass roots portion of the hobby. I will continue toward my goal of getting hobbist involved at a different level. Once the dust is settled, whatever the ruleset, I will play.

Out