Weight Limits

I know "WHY" we install weight limits: because there are more than 30 different figures and 10 different bases that we can combine to make more than 300 different weight combinations. Reminds me of The University of Oregon and their 1000 different uniform combinations!?!

But, let's say that other than changing a few arm, leg and head positions - NO MAJOR CUSTOMIZING!!! - let's say I combine a 2.4 gram ff.com figure + a standard 0.8 gram rookie base to weigh-in at 3.2 total grams? What if my ENTIRE team was dressed like this? All 33 guys. No matter how you take apart and recombine the figures and bases, they will ALWAYS weigh 3.2 grams.

Is THAT any different than dressing an ENTIRE team with '67 Big Man DBs on Miggle TTCs?

IF there is no other combination to be made why wouldn't the first example not be allowed?

Should all of our rules be rewritten to allow for this possibility? I think "yes" with a clause stating that if one single, solitary non-rookie base is used, THEN all figures should be 2.0 grams, no questions. I love "if/then" statements, don't you?

Not only am I asking because that is the combination I find myself pondering while preparing my team for league play. But I also wonder on a hobby-wide level. Since the 3.2 limit was set based on the heaviest figure (at the time) + the heaviest base (at the time), why wouldn't the current heaviest figure (ff.com) + the lightest base (standard rookie) be allowed, if THAT is the ONLY combination and with the aforementioned clause?

Bottom line, I know I'll have to play within the ruleset of my league, but this just made me go, "Hmmmmmm???"

What say you?

[RavennaAl]

I say, if you set a limit, then any combination of figure and base should be allowed to play at that limit. That means I can use a 2.4g figure with a .8g base, or a 1.9g figure with a 1.3g base to reach a 3.2 limit. The stipulation being, all figures and bases must be glued together so that a coach can't switch bases and figures during play. If another guy wants to play with all 2.0g figures and 1.2g bases and switch them around, then that would be ok, but if I have my figures and bases glued together so that I can't switch players and bases, then there should be no problem with that. Right??? :rolleyes:

ONLY in a perfect world it seems, like when I was 11 and instead of playing Strat-O-Matic Baseball and Electronic Football I & II and then Coleco's Head-To-Head Electronic Football with all the guys instead of Electric Football.

Too many guys try to take advantage and expolit holes in rules. I say line 'em up and play. EVERYBODY can be beat and it's up to your coaching staff to figure it out. If everybody is made privvy to all of the enhancements we could do to our guys to increase their weight, increase their speed, etc, then we should be able to choose what's best for our team i.e. 1 BB, 3 BBs, 1 locknut, 1 flynut, 1 fishing weight or whatever.

If I know your entire team is maxed out at 3.3, then I'm prolly not gonna go head to head with them with anything less than that on my team. How I get there shouldn't matter.

[Michigan Joe]

Jimbo,
I've been trying to say this for a while, why does it matter how we get to 3.3g? Ravenna Al makes a good point about adhering the figure/base if either the figure or base combo exceeds 2.0 figure or 1.2 base (to combat some people's concern for cheating). If we allow TOTAL weight it is more all inclusive including FF.com figures, all 67 bigMen, custom figures, the new buzzball TTC bases, etc. When using a figure that is greater than 2.0 I've shown how to take a Miggle TTC base can be easily trimmed down to 1.0g. Heck a heavier figure is not neccissarily an advantage as a heavier base is. Its been my experience that a heavier figure is can be harder to get "balanced" and therefore can require a little more effort in tweaking. The whole point here is inclusiveness and common ground. I would like to point to the mid-Ohio EFL 3.5 total weight rule (or BEFL 3.4g) as ones that I believe don't make traditional equipment obsolte while being open to much of the great innovation that is occuring in the hobby.

If a common weight was set today my vote would be ~3.5ish even though I really do like 4.0g. Lets remember that a little miggle team beat all the big men teams this year at the Miggle tournament so people shouldn't get too caught up in a few tenths of a gram being a huge competitive advantage. In fact the Big men are something like 0.4g heavier but those nicely balanced little guys are good.

Just my 2 cents.
Joe

[Michigan Joe]

Also the LAEFL 3.3 total weight and rule set looks to be VERY inclusive I might add without extending weight to what most consider a drastic difference from "standard" equipment.

[Michigan Joe]

After reading my own post I want to be clear that I am pointing out leagues THAT I KNOW OF, that play with TOTAL WEIGHT which was the basis of Jimbo's post. Also, in no way do I want to demean anyone who plays 2.0 figure and 1.2 base such as the AMAZINGLY great leagues like the GLEFL and others. This too is a great system with deep roots and a lot of support.
Joe

[Geno H]

Tornado Alley EFL plays 3.3 total weight no matter how ya get there. We also know that at any moment your man can be picked up and weighed. It happened to me last weekend, and I took it as a compliment. so I guess I am saying we are on the honor system. It allows for everything to make its way into the game through one combination or another.


Geno H

I don't think you demeaned anyone what so ever. We can have these discussions w/o major drama as long as we agree that we are not always going to agree. Not agreeing doesn't necessarily constitute belittling. It's all about how you present it. That being points to consider, facts and opinions. Including those elements without some sub-agenda also helps. I don't see anything that you posted on this subject that could possibly be construed as negative. At least not to anyone w/more than 3 brain cells (which consequently just might be me).

Which way to go should be decided by what works best for those in charge of enforcing it from a Commissioner's or Promoter's perspective. If it sounds good but can't be properly enforced by those in charge of enforcing that venue's format then it probably isn't the best way to go. I am one of those who asks all of these questions because I have more than average experience w/events and w/the various formats. Translated meaning, it has been my duty as a hobbyist, and by my agreeing to assist that venue, to enforce THEIR format. Sometimes, and even often, what works well for one is a really bad idea for another.

One problem w/glue as being THE reason one "can't change bases" doesn't always hold up. No pun intended. You can not assure all others that one can't simple pop a figure off its base, glue or not, and switch it w/another. I've seen it (more than once). It can be OK to run a format this way so I'm not saying it is a bad idea. I'm saying glue does not prevent one from switching figures/bases. If only a slight amount is used, it isn't difficult to do w/a quickness. Who will be responsible for watching every coach so that doesn't happen? Certainly we can't expect their opponent's to be ultimately responsible. There is too much to do on their own side of the ball when competing to put that burden on them. Not to take a shot at anyone's venue but, I feel that is a major weakness in Miggle's rules-putting the onus on you to be responsible for the legality of your opponent's equipment. That is and should be the duty of the hosting venue. If they can't do that then they probably should stick to what they can regulate and accept responsibility for enforcing.

In a perfect world that I envision (which is at least in the same orbital solar system as the one Jimbo described), you would only be facing the most honorable opponent's and it wouldn't ever be an issue. If you have all coaches involved who have impeccable credibility then the rule book and all of its regulatory explanations just got a whole lot thinner. There is little to no need for worrying about this. In such cases, protect, keep and cherish what you have, rules and equipment aside. Because that is something worth preserving-something money can't buy.

Overall, it appears to be fair to the majority to break down each piece of equipment and make it stand up to said specs (whatever the format requires) on its own. That way it doesn't matter if they're mixed and matched. It also has other benefits. It allows coaches more options with less players when base switching is allowed. There's no need to watch or worry about parts switching since they all past inspection before they hit the field. It allows a time burdened venue (tourneys and travel leagues) to streamline their protocol, which helps assure things go more smoothly and finish on time. It also allows a venue to request smaller rosters to streamline the equipment check-in/validation process since base switching is allowed. Meaning less figures and bases to check in (saves precious time) without coaches having to suffer from lack of player options (figure+base=player). Certain figures could be used on any approved base in a given coach's box to play a multitude of roles on that team.

Local leagues without some sort of thorough inspection process (those that don't use or don't need one) are exempt from these considerations. It is a non-issue for them. It comes into consideration much more for tourneys and travel leagues w/definitive time constraints.

I'm not posting this to conflict or validate anyone's preferences. I am simply sharing my knowledge, my ideas and my thoughts, based on my actual experiences. In the end, do whatever is best for those directly involved. You can't go wrong that way, guaranteed.

-Mike Pratt

[RavennaAl]

Well, I guess it is true that you can pop off a figure that has been glued to a base. The only thing is that if you see an opponant with a figure seperated from a base, you call a foul. As I said, all figures would have to be glued to a base, therefore there should be no figures that are not on a base, nor bases without figures near the table. Secondly, one can always check an opponants players after the game. It would be easy to figure out which players are still glued, and which have had the glue broken. But as you said, there are always going to be cheaters out there, no matter what system that you use, unless you have seperate referees watching both players 100% of the time.

The thing is, I don't think there is that much difference in a .1 or .2 gram difference. The biggest difference in performance is in the base itself. Case in point, the game between the Sasquatch and SwampMoose. I use only rookie bases that are un-tweaked. But, I also use a BB under the linemen, which puts the base at the same weight as a normal TTC base. The 'Quatch are all 67 Bigman figures, and the bases are also painted. I have no doubt that all the 'Quatch were heavier than the Moose. But, the Moose all had bases that had been extensively tweaked by none other that Mr. Pratt himself. If you watched the game, you'ld see that the two teams were pretty evenly matched. There was no overly strong players for either side, nor overly fast players. The game was enjoyable simply because the two teams were about even, and Glenn is a great guy to play against. If Glenn had weighted his guys up it would have been no contest. Nor would it have been much of a game if Glenns team had all been on un-tweaked rookie bases. As it was, the extra weight and tweaked bases sort of cancelled each other out. And after all, isn't just having fun what it's all about??

[detroitchild]

I can't believe that there is that much cheating going on in this hobby. It's very disappointing to hear this. I guess I assumed most guys had a "wide eye innocence of youth" view of MF/EF. That is way to serious for me. I hope that the cheaters are few and far between and that they are called out and banned from various league and tournament play.

As far as weight limits are concerned, I say let the teams make weight anyway possible...as long as they don't go over the league/tourney limit. Personally I find the heavier players run better on my big board. I like a little speed in my games and some bases just can't cut it without the additional weight. Michigan Joe showed me how to weight bases a while back and it has improved my teams play. I'm still working on my tweaking skills (that's another story altogether) but the combo of proper tweaking and a little weight has made this hobby a little more enjoyable for me.

DC